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Re-roll on Ld 10 is better than Fearless at times.
You are silly.

UNMODIFIED rerollable LD10 is better than fearless. ANSKNF is better than fearless. A leadership score is WORSE then fearless

Let's say you lose against not doomed banshees, they kill five.
You are now re-rolling on ld5. If you fail both you wipe.
If you're fearless? Five armor saves. You lose two guys and get to swing a fist next turn, or tie them up.
ATSKNF? You either book it and shoot them in the face or go to fearless wounds
If you're a sister of battle you roll ld10 and laugh at their stupid banshee faces

Getting your squad handed to you for two failed morale checks in combat at half strength is dildos.

Best case scenario:you avoid taking armor saves(Which you aren't afraid of anyway, you're a marine)
Worst case scenario: you effing explode, no save.

IoCG is the only icon to take on basic CSMs IMHO.
You take this so they can cry on objectives for 85 points.

But you really should be taking plague marines or zerkers.
 

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Unless you want to play the army you actually want to play instead of what the internet says you must.

A good player can easily make up for the perceived shortcomings of a less than optimum build.

So says the guy who runs Dreads, Lesser Demons and IoCG marines.
You play people who have no idea on how the game works, or that all play outdated dexes. Or you play uncompetitive, in which case, game on. I wish my FLGS would go back to simpler times when I could field those and feasibly win.

Nowadays they just get roflstomped by the newer and better stuff.
 

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Seriously.
Think what you will, but the "newer and better stuff" isn't all the internet says it is. a Good player can overcome GWs codex creep with an older dex. It's not the list, it's the General.
It's not the general, it's the list. Even a god general with a bad list can't beat a noob with the solid chaos list. It's impossible. Let's say the bad list contains no special weapons and no champs, just dudes and a weaponless lord. You're boned no matter how much you have the heart of the cards.

Albeit yes, an older dex can beat a newer dex with statistical improbability, just as I might eventually defy gravity and float into space as some sort of orbiting hate satellite.

I just don't see where the math favors the older and worse choices.


As for the task at hand, I don't see where the reroll is better than ATSKNF, or fearless. A second chance to not die is great, except when it fails. Then your 220 point chaos marine unit dies instantly because they have garbage initiative from not taking i5 icon of slaanesh, or they died that much because they didn't have a 5++ to save them, or you just rolled bad and got pinned. The cult troops ignore all these problems, either from NOT losing combat in the first place(Zerks), or by losing combat, then not giving a damn due to 3+ armor 4+ fnp saves(plagues) on top of that both of those units score and have ridiculous bonuses for such a low amount of points per marine. Additionally the PMs can be taken in six man squads which means as mentioned earlier they cost about the same, and they get hit by templates less due to less models, also hiding them out of los is easier(less dudes to hide!)

Albeit is I do run vanilla marines for apoc games I always take fabius, my 220 point squads aren't a liability, and they're stronger, the lack of an hq choice doesnt matter so much in apoc so it's a decent trade.
 

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By your logic all tournaments should be won by Blood Angels, Tyranids or Guard.
I think guard won ard boyz, and the final rounds were mostly blood angels, wolves, and guard. Tyranids got shit all over.

Dark Eldar, Necrons and Chaos would never win.
Necrons and daemonhunters can't win. Dark eldar have a solid spam list, and chaos is still bringing up the rear of second tier armies.

I have qualified for Ard Boyz finals twice with my CSMs and my buddy who plays DE has been twice.
DE are not bad and neither are CSM(lolwat). Hell I qualified for finals with goddamned Templar.
Also since you say twice, I will assume this year and last? Last year was a great year for both those armies, this year was only SLIGHTLY worse.

The best player in our group plays Space Marines, only because he got tired of never (EVER) losing a game with Eldar.
Yeah all the eldar around here quit when fourth edition flying circus of horseshit ended...also everyone plays space marines, this counterpoint confuses me.

A better General beats a better codex ANY DAY. There are just too many variables in this game to definitively say "this army will beat that one". If you're ever in the Nashville area, PM me and I will show you. :victory:
This post is full of lies and heresy. Good BA lists topple almost any other army in the game, they play themselves. Fire zee lazers, pop the smoke. Shoot guns.

That being said if you're saying someone with a stronger grasp of the RULES versus someone else? Sure but that's only due to cheating more hahaha.

Also you imply you cut in the front of the line for all the hot bitches in Tennessee.
Though if you wish, next ard boys we could coordinate where to battle semifinals at. I'll bring blood angels and take a half quart of vodka, two ex pills, three blunts, and a pill of acid. THEN. THEN WE SHALL SEE GOODSIR.

Granted, a totally horrible list purpose-built to fail like your example won't work, but neither is playing against a 2-year old for my point.
I still think this time last year a 2-year old playing nob trucks deff rolla could beat most armies in the game, most certainly the bad ones.
 

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My Legion of Brass has never lost to:

Space Wolves
Guard
Blood Angels

Waffles, the only Hottie in Tennessee that you have to worry about with me is mine. Who happens to be named Tennessee.
You know what they say about girls named after states :grin:

And I know several, most of whom I'd never call back but that's more because it's such a drive.

From the way you describe your legion of brass I can only assume one of three things:
Either those armies you described are not kitted out properly, the players of which are total garbage, or you/them have cheatyface/cursed dice, respectively.

It's statistical improbability/impossibility for bad chaos to roll even against the current metagame of BA being incredibly undercosted for the libbie/razorback. Even good generalship can only go so far, just as listbuilding can only go so far.

This is where I am pointing out a disparage in your analysis.


That being said in the current 12 week league my FLGS is running I am undefeated circa week ten and have played all those armies and nids. The wolves weren't so much a problem, the nids was simple raider spam, the guard was statistically fantastic rolling on my part and a very bad move on his and the BA?

Well the BA decided to drop thirty marines out of the sky. Onto my land raider. I am very glad I had windshield wipers for all those mishaps.
 

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i would have thought it went

General > Codex > List

o_O
People like to assume they're better generals than they really are. Actually it's more like

List = Codex = General

Because a bad necron of similar skill does not beat a bad space wolf.
A good daemonhunter does not beat a good ig
A bad player with leafblower ig can beat a bad eldar list with a good general

I guess it's mostly opinion. No amount of data on any side of this argument will convince the other. Most tournament players believe there's some amazing untouchable skill required. I think if you just shit all over someones army with dice, and don't do anything stupid, you can pull great victories.
 

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I'm with DK.

A player with all the best list/points/dice army can still be handed his arse on a plate if he doesn't put them in the right place at the right time to use the extra pile of dice.

And that is the crux of the 'tabletop' general. Right time, right place, right unit.
You are ruining my argument.

If my argument is ruined I'm going to start thinking the games I won don't involve the list or codex and instead involve me rocking face and being a genius.

Still, I believe of the two hypothetical generals of equal skill(one playing an older dex, one playing a newer, tournament quality, dex), the one with the newer, stronger list(Mathematically stronger) will win a higher percentage of games then the one with the older and less point-effective codex. We can prove that some unit choices are simply better than others, and while this might not be the end-all be-all, some codexes provide a stronger chance to win if you are playing on a level field of intellect.


Unless I win games simply due to the fact that I'm some miracle child of templar. Really. Our tactics boil down to "Stab faces that aren't ours"
 

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That's how my games tend to go... :smoke:



That's the thing, Waffles, they all have something to do with success in this game, but just because a codex is "weak" or a unit is "useless" doesn't mean someone can't surprise you with them. Hell, just the fact that it IS unpopular gives an advantage sometimes. I've lost track of the times I have heard someone say "Those things are FLEET?!!" As my Defiler crashes into they're unit.
I think we're misconstruing ought with might. Old codexes OUGHT to lose to new ones if played by generals of the same caliber. The are statistically inferior in terms of output of guns and army survivability.

Meanwhile you argue that regardless of the numerics against them, they can still win. To this point I totally agree. I play goddamn templar. I have a very very good reason why I didn't make finals, but the thing is, I almost made finals for ard boyz this year. Can you, I can't even contemplate that. It's like showing up to a presidential meeting in your boxers and NOBODY questions it.



Also god-damned necrons.
 

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i thought it was because they are only WS and BS 3
The main turnoff is you are putting a super wal mart on the board with av12 and somehow hoping it doesn't explode.


The bs 3 isnt a huge deal because it fires pieplates
The ws3 sucks but...you still hit most things on 4s
 

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Penises, in my experience, rely on a few factors to be effective:

1. Have 2, or even 3. Gives the enemy more targets to worry about.

2. Have other big scarry things on the field. Always run a DP or two in a list with penises, and if you happen to be using a unit of Zerkers/Termies, grab that Land Raider.

Penises are something to take if you can run into the room and scream "MY ENTIRE LIST IS HUUUUUUGE!!!" and no-one but the godzilla-nid player can 1-up you.
Personally I use my _Defiler_ to sweep the table clean of models at the end of the game. The most terrifying part of this is I never leave my side of the board to do so.
 
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