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Warsmith
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Good Morning all,

So I have been running around in my head a conversion to build a counts as Huron Blackheart for my Iron Warriors army. (Based on the War Smith Model)..

But the question I have.. is Huron better than a normal Lord?

From what I can tell, on the disavantages are
- He only has 3 attacks and no way to improve this
- No Mark.
- No ranged shooting attack.

But.

He does ensure that I will be infiltrating 1 unit (but not one in a Rhino correct?), and he is quite cheep.
 

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Herald of The Warp
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I have never used him myself, but from what I have read and seen, people don't take him for his combat prowess. They take him for a cheap way to guarantee the infiltration option with their units, which can be devastating.

From what I remember it is D3 units though - Not 1. And yes, they have to be infantry, if memory serves (I don't have the book on me, so I could be talking out my ass).
 

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Warsmith
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
From what I remember it is D3 units though - Not 1. And yes, they have to be infantry, if memory serves (I don't have the book on me, so I could be talking out my ass).
Yes, but you can only be certain that 1 unit will Infiltrate... you could have 3 but you will have 1.
 

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Warsmith
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Ok.. He is good (By Chaos Standards)

So yes I shall get out the clippers and work on a conversion then!
 

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I made my "count as" huron some time ago, usually using him to deliver some plasma chosens behind enemy lines. In my experience he makes a good kamikaze with his fellow infiltrators, since he will invariably shot to pieces the moment he appears. A nice combo is to rush spawns ahead and let him arrive via outflank to melt with meltas some shit and improving survivability and damage from the spawns. Also, he is no slouche in melee and can take on any enemy, given the right support. However he is a jack of all trades and need specialists around to be able of doing something. in the case above melee specialists (spawns) and shoot specialists (melta chosens)
About the "rhino" issue: the unit gains infiltrate, hence any DEDICATED transport they are in can deploy along using the same rule. So, no issue at all.
Now, let's mentally masturbate on this:

Huron

7 Chosens (Crimson slaughter)
5 meltaguns
Draznicht ravagers
rhino, dirge caster
(386 pts)

5 nurgle spawns
3 nurgle spawns
(288 pts)

3 helbrutes ( mayhem pack)
(300 pts)

Under 1000 pts, and you get an idea of what i mean about huron: stupid, unreliable , but hard hitter, tricky and fun as hell!
 
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There is also the Hamadrya which he has that lets you cast a random power, which while it might not be that useful, sicne you generate every turn as if they were a psyker you also get the primaris to choose from too (from psyker focus). Or if not he still gets an extra power dice for another sorcerer to use. I personally really like him, and think he is one of the stronger characters in the book because he supports the army as a whole rather than just being particularly killy should you get him into combat
 

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Huron is my default "lord" option (Unless I wanna run my NM army with Lucius - those are usually themed games when he comes out to play though).

However is he worth taking instead of a sorcerer or one of our other HQ characters/generics?

Answer: most likely, it would probably be a three way tie between him, Typhus (for zombie cultists), or a generic sorcerer (more likely 2 of them)
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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To answer the question of the initial forum title:

In my experience, yes, but only if you build the army wholly around his infiltration ability.

In terms of combat ability for raw points, he's decently flexible: AP2 at I1 or AP3 with the nasty Tyrant's Claw. Still, though he's no slouch, he's not too much to write home about from raw combat statline alone or able to beat dedicated combat monsters reliably (for all that he's one of the few CSM special characters to come with a 4+ invuln), and you can't in any way shape or form rely on his random psychic ability.

Now, I think it's an unfair (albeit wholly accurate) framing to say he can "infiltrate at least 1 unit." More, to my point of view, that "he can infiltrate an average of 2 units." I mean, he has a marine armor save to field less, on a D3, but... bring 1 unit you must infiltrate, 1 unit you'd like to infiltrate, and 1 unit that would be amusing to infiltrate, and 2/3 of the time, you'll be happy.

Like neferhet said, designated transports in no way limit infiltration, by the way, so you could freely field Huron in a squad of 5 CSM who have a Rhino: if you have enough units to infiltrate them, you give Infiltrate to Huron himself, who, being a member of the squad grants them Infiltrate (bearing in mind that it's only a squad with Infiltrate that does have the rule along side a special character who doesn't that's illegal: a unit with one or more minis with the rule can infiltrate just fine, and a special character who has it can therefore confer it to the whole unit*)... and good Tzeentch, this whole explanation has gotten more complicated that I'd like it to be.

Ahem. Huron is worth it, in my eyes, if you build the list around him. He underperforms unless you rely on infiltrating at least 2 units with him, as I see it, and for me, those are generally Daemonettes (whose largest problem is closing the distance before being shot up, but are otherwise gold). He can accompany with some Dirge Caster Rhinos for your main detachment's 2 mandatory troops choices... and that's basically how I've swung it.

Do bear in mind that for a mere 70-ish points more, you can get Ahriman the ML4 psyker who has the same Warlord Trait that you're building the list around--who admittedly only has AP4, vs Huron's AP3/2, and no Spell Familiar, but a crapload of rolls for Invisibility, even after his mark-mandated roll, and a bunch of warp charge per turn--the main advantage Huron offers is his relative inexpensiveness, and if you're thinking competitively, he's still a damn sight more expensive than a Wave Serpent.

If you're forgoing a Lord whose mark allows you to build your list just so, Huron might well offer a semi-viable alternative for a player committed to getting Infantry units close enough for a guaranteed T2 assault. That's... a very specific set of parameters, admittedly, but he does perform admirably for Chaos within that very specific set. Complemented by Spawn or Bikers who are geared towards melee too--it might just be enough, meta-dependent, to get you a semi-competitive melee list that you can have fun with and still win with more than half the time.


* for all that there are, admittedly, some corners of the forum that argue that you can't join a special character to a unit until after deployment, so you can't infiltrate that unit, since they can't deploy infiltrated without the special character who would infiltrate them.... which, as I see it, goes so flagrantly against RAI that I'm going to wave it on past.
 

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Totally not worth it IMO.

Firstly, Infiltrate isn't really worth it and it's D3 units so unreliable. That's why you're bringing him so I'm not really convinced they're points well spent.

Secondly, he is on foot... so where do you put him? In a squad of infiltrated Chosen is an option but, what does he add to them? Not a lot. Plus Chosen used to have Infiltrate for free so no thanks. CSM have little/no transport options that suck so foot-bound ICs are a problem, sure Kharn gets a Land Raider, but where do you put Huron? In a Rhino with CSMs? Meh.

Better than a 'regular' Lord? No, absolutely not... An AoBF JuggerLord or PF/LC Nurgle bike Lord is a billion times more points effective.
 

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now now... i know that our only COMPETITIVE choice is the Nurle lord biker and the Jugger Axe lord...but c'mon it's not like we are all going to tourneys everyday. He is a jack of all trades, as i said before. unreliable, unable to take on any other specialized character..but adding infiltration to CSM is gold, since he is the only way to do it in a decent point range.
Also, he is a psiker (sort of)!! Plus, he has an awesome model! Let's give some love to Huron!
 

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Rattlehead
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now now... i know that our only COMPETITIVE choice is the Nurle lord biker and the Jugger Axe lord...but c'mon it's not like we are all going to tourneys everyday. He is a jack of all trades, as i said before. unreliable, unable to take on any other specialized character..but adding infiltration to CSM is gold, since he is the only way to do it in a decent point range.
Also, he is a psiker (sort of)!! Plus, he has an awesome model! Let's give some love to Huron!
And if people are going to tournaments with the intention of winning, they're not going anywhere fast with CSM anyway.

I think his model is awesome, his portrayal in Blood Reaver and the bits of Pandorax that I've read are awesome, and his rules are cool. Definite yes from me.
 

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Well, each to their own etc (I have a list with Warp Talons in after all)...

But competitive doesn't mean tournaments. Using Huron with mates if he's garbage doesn't mean you'll have fun. Many players play against good players with good armies for fun yet want a chance at winning, I do this (never been to a tournament but I want to play a solid list so I don't get rolled).

Huron has two major problems, firstly he can't take on other beatstick ICs and really only brings Infiltrate & Fearless to the table for his points cost (the former any other Lord has a 1/6 of getting, and the latter all Lords have anyway). Secondly, he's on foot. Being on foot is the killer, he's just too slow to be any good and too weak to warrant a Land Raider (unlike Kharn or Abaddon).

In an aggressive list of Nurgle Spawn, Bikes, Maulerfiends, Daemons allies, etc (which is as competitive as we get) I just don't see his use over a Lord or Sorcerer.
 

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Rattlehead
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If you're playing within a very localised meta such as 'a few mates', then chances are your concepts of what will be a 'good unit' will be vastly warped from other people's and I don't think you can say with any authority whether something is 'competitive'. For example, when I talk about competitive lists, I'm referring to West Coast USA tournaments, because that's where Adepticon and NOVA and a bunch of other 40k events are and tends to be what sets 'the trend'. In my local group (of five players), the only time Serpent Spam/Taudar have been on the table is when they've been being rapidly taken off it, and Dark Eldar are doing really well. Dark Eldar are pretty objectively a poor codex in the former scene, and therefore I would declare them 'uncompetitive', but they're dominating the latter as they're very good at fighting the local meta.

I also disagree that Huron is poor as a dude outside of his special rules. His what, Str6 Lightning Claw IIRC is actually a pretty nice thing to be swinging at I5 (hell, Chaos Lord stats are nice); a Heavy Flamer on a HQ model is easy to underestimate but lets him contribute to more than one phase; and giving Fearless and handing out Infiltrate as well as the odd time that the Hamadrya does something useful make him pretty okay. Is he going to solo an army or be an auto-include? Well, no, of course not. Is he worth bringing? I'd say he is, yeah, if for his curveball ability if nothing else. People don't expect Obliterators to Infiltrate; much like the Slaanesh Lord on Steed, he can do a thing which isn't a 'this is amazing' thing that everyone noticed on day one like the Serpent Shield, but they can do something weird that not many people make contingencies to deal with that can impact the game far more from threat than one would imagine.
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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that not many people make contingencies to deal with that can impact the game far more from threat than one would imagine.
...though that any Imperial player can handle for about 28 points of Inquisitor with servo-skulls. :ireful2:
 

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Rattlehead
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...though that any Imperial player can handle for about 28 points of Inquisitor with servo-skulls. :ireful2:
I was more referring to the Outflank Lord, but how many Imperial players bring Servo Skulls as a matter of course? Unless I'm bringing a Nemesis Strike Force all-of-the-Terminators-all-day-long, I don't bring Servo Skulls because there's... really not much point other than if you have a non-Drop Pod turn 1 Deep Strike or you *know* you're fighting Infiltrators and Scouts.

Anyone *can* deal with anything, as long as you know what you're fighting before you fight it.
 

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I'd concede some of that (W3 T4 with a 3+/4++ isn't that spectacular neither is his 1 Warp charge effort) but you ignored my main point... That his biggest issue is that he's essentially stuck on foot. S6 rending and a heavy flamer is alright if you can be the one to decide what that's against, unfortunately being stuck on foot will mean it's likely your opponent who will be deciding what gets into hth with him.

When I used him I did try him in a Unit of MoT combi-plasma Terminators, that worked 'alright' I guess.
 

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JUGGERNUT
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For what it's worth you can use a Rhino to drive around and torch people with the heavy flamer, but we all know the risks and drawbacks of that cardboard beast.

Then again, with the new erratum on Infiltrate we'd have to waste 2 of the d3 to make Huron able to Infiltrate along with the unit in the Rhino, and there just doesn't seem to be any way that's worth it. Better to Infiltrate 2 units of CSM or whatever than Huron. Ugh. So lame. Was Huron so overpowered along with a unit of Infiltrating cronies? Was anything we could infiltrate? I know I'm whining, and truthfully I never really use Huron, but god damn!
 
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