The imperium is not really dying in my opinion, it's just a stalemate empire, neither prospering or diminishing.

They're all about perseverance in the face of adversity while the Tau can be argued as prospering faster and faster.

They're the imperium 2.0

My 2 cents.

 

the imperium does not care about diplomacy with allies, they will stay allies for as long as it benefits them, as soon as that benefit reaches its highest peak diplomacy changes from ally to enemy and guns are pointed towards them.

there have and can be exceptions of course but its most likely covered up, but if higher ups found out in full detail there would be hell to pay.

the imperium is a greedy hate filled xenophobic backwater corrupt thing, and will step on anyone and do anything to gain power and instantly cover it all up to avoid punishment, anything as simple as a rogue trader trading illegal xenos tech to system wide alliances.

 

I absolutely agree here. The Tau are the "upstart" race. Often being referred to as "those upstart Tau." The Imperium could crush the Tau with a single crusade, however lack the time whilst entangled with more pressing matters. Once the Imperium can work a free day into their schedule, the Tau will cease to exist. up to now, i think the Imperium hasn't cared enough to stamp out their futile existence. The only reason the Tau have prospered as a race is that the Imperium has simply allowed them to exist by their indifference.

CP

 

It's the same as any Imperial-xeno relationship.

If the Tau get too frisky, the Imperium will turn around and keep them in their place. Otherwise, the Imperium will draw a line in the sand and hope the Tau don't pass too far across it.

Considering how aggressive the Tau are, I don't imagine anything positive coming out this. If the Tau were treated like any other alien species (therefore minus plot armor), the Imperium probably would overrun them in a crusade lasting many centuries.

For now, the Tau haven't passed the new line in the sand the Imperium has written.

 

I dont completely agree with the Imperium 2.0 notion. Their belief in the Greater Good makes them set higher standards and leaves room for diplomacy. They actually try to negotiate and convert others to their belief before crushing them, hence thier alien auxiliaries. The Imperium on the other hand just wants material wealth and could care less about negotiation.

I do see an issue between the two, with the Tau trying to expand and the Imperium becoming annoyed with them. In the end I think the Imperium will lose more area than the Tau, just because the Tau will be much more focused, while the Imperium with find it minor and hold less value for a couple planets.

 

How are they Imperium 2.0? Beyond the fact that both are aggressively expansive empires?

Plus keep in mind that the Tau have very limited warp travel abilities. They can not hope to span the galaxy like the Imperium does.

 

Their rate of progressive technology makes up for any inadequacies they may currently have, as with time, they will eventually catch up and surpass the imperium (IE. get new tech such as warp travel, etc.)

 

The Emperor proclaimed the manifest destiny of Mankind to be the sole master of the Stars. The Tau disagree with this, therefore they will be destroyed in the Emperor's name. That said...

The Tau have not problem incorporating humans into their empire. If the Tau continue to grow in technology and strength then they will become an attractive alternative to the Imperium. As the Tau gains strength the fear of Inquisitorial retribution for defection will wane. More and more worlds will see their future best lies in the Greater Good.

There are A LOT more humans in the galaxy then their are Tau. Ian Watson's Inquisition war actually says that for all the death and war humanity suffers every year the birthrate in the Imperium is higher then the deathrate.

I think I read somewhere that their are less then 10,000 worlds in the Tau Empire. That is less then 1% of the Imperium. In a war of attrition the Imperium will win. But Imagine if planetary governors start seeing the Tau Empire as an alternative to the Imperium then the Tau will get the manpower it needs to defend itself indefinitely. The Tau Empire would quickly become a human empire, a federation of races working together for the betterment of all its members with humanity at its center (sound familiar?).

The one big problem with that scenario is that the Tau have no idea how to deal with a domestic psyker problem. The Imperium with its Litany of Hate knows what to do with these potential daemon gates, How are the Tau going to deal with their citizens being possessed by Warp Spawn? Its entirely possible that the Tau will find a solution to the psyker problem in a way that the Imperium never could. Or a daemonic invasion will kill them all.

This Federation would probably have huge drawing power and will grow exponentially. This is all assuming the Tau are ok with their Empire's massive demographic shift. But faced between an endless war with the behemoth Imperium and Co-opting its population they might be ok with being relegated to a smaller role in the Federation if it means survival.

 

The Emperor proclaimed the manifest destiny of Mankind to be the sole master of the Stars. The Tau disagree with this, therefore they will be destroyed in the Emperor's name. That said...

I think I read somewhere that their are less then 10,000 worlds in the Tau Empire. That is less then 1% of the Imperium. In a war of attrition the Imperium will win. But Imagine if planetary governors start seeing the Tau Empire as an alternative to the Imperium then the Tau will get the manpower it needs to defend itself indefinitely. The Tau Empire would quickly become a human empire, a federation of races working together for the betterment of all its members with humanity at its center (sound familiar?).

This Federation would probably have huge drawing power and will grow exponentially. This is all assuming the Tau are ok with their Empire's massive demographic shift. But faced between an endless war with the behemoth Imperium and Co-opting its population they might be ok with being relegated to a smaller role in the Federation if it means survival.

um, seeing as no human would willing turn his back on the Emperor, and secondly the Tau would be the ones in charge, they wouldn't let the humans that join them really control anything... they would let them live, work, and fight for them but never lead the Tau Empire. and Imperial worlds really arn't worried about just survival... they have the Emperor, Imperial guard, Space Marines, and countless other forces to defend them if need be. the Tau are strong but you are forgetting that from birth just about every single human is brought up to fear and hate Xeno scum... they are not to be trusted...
Humans who turn from the Imperium are deemed traitors and are killed where every they are found often in horrible ways.

The Imperium has countless worlds of billions to call upon to take up arms and fight their enemies. the Tau don't, and are thus, no matter their tech stronger then the imperium.

Also once a planetary governer turns to the Tau and declares his alliegance to their empire, they would be noticed and removed from office perminetly... and his world retaken in the Emperors glorious name and the name of Dorn!

 

The Tau space numbers for a few hundred systems, per their codex. Habitable worlds is probably significantly less than this. In terms of "full" planets, it only has 20. This doesn't include the various alien homeworlds that have been absorbed the Tau.

The problem with Tau, is that unlike the Star Trek Federation, it isn't an equal opportunity empire. First there are Tau, then everyone else.

 

That is true...at the moment. But if the Tau Empire is as small as you say then they are doomed to extinction. Maybe not soon, maybe not for a thousand years. But one day the Emperor's armies will crush them. Faced between extinction and life in a human dominated empire of their own making I think the Tau would gladly prop up a human-Tau empire.

 

I don't see any supporting evidence for this Human-Tau Empire. Care to supply some canon that would support this thesis?

 

Gue'vasa. The humanity already makes up a significant portion of the Empire.

 

Well, as far as their evolution is concerned, they progress at an astounding rate. As a race they are only 2000 years old, so it would seem that, given another thousand years or so, they could advance to be something close to the necrons. However, they would be decimated by the sheer numbers of the imperium before they became such a large threat.

 

History has shown us that the Imperium will stop at nothing to quell an emerging threat, throwing countless lives at an objective simply to crush it and move on. Condemning thousands of people to death just for the sake of an acre of land.

And when i say more pressing matters...must i remind you of the threat that lurks within the Ghoul Stars. The Death Spectres are going to need some help reeeeeal soon if you ask me.

CP

 

That's assuming the imperium are not kept busy in the meantime or that they become aware of the tau's technology, they could probably create something that prevents any scans/psycher spies from checking up on them.

 

so now we're dreaming up some sort of anti-psyker tech!? Please, work on your warp capabilities before that!

CP

 

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As a race they are only 2000 years old, so it would seem that, given another thousand years or so, they could advance to be something close to the necrons.

 

TBH I don't think the imperium will have to deal with them..... in fact they probably shouldn't. Tyranid meat shield me thinks?

 

Yeah that's what I was thinking, the imperium would be too busy dealing the massive tyranid fleet en route to the galaxy they're housed in and a whole lot of things are coming back/going to be bugging the imperium in that time.

 

I still say there is something that needs to be done when it comes to the Ghoul Stars. Mostly overlooked by the rest of current GW canon, it is a very wicked scenario. and yes the tyranids as well...*cough* they need work.

CP

 

lol i see

CP

 

What are the ghoul stars ? I don't think I've ever heard them mentioned previously

 

the Ghoul Stars are a region of space watched over by the Death Spectres Space Marines. they are home to creatures called the Cythor Fiends. Vampire like creatures. High marshal Helbrecht led a crusade against them and when he reached their home worlds they were empty, he then got a request for help from armageddon so he promptly left.There isn't really much more to be known, except that there are whispers of future books and background fluff regarding the Ghoul Stars from deep within BL publishing. Located on the fringes of the Ultima Segmentum.

CP

 

Forgive me but how is that such a pressing issue? What threat do they present to the empire?

 

They are shape shifters and capable/already have infiltrated higher echelons of society into positions of power.

Also the Death Specters apparently want to prevent the Tyranids from going over there and absorbing their shapeshifting powers for obvious reasons.

The Ghoul Star system is also apparently the oldest area of the galaxy and full with crazy aliens.

Also they were just in the way of their expeditionary fleet.

 

To be honest I don't think a Human/Tau Empire is every likely to happen. Mainly because I think the Tau don't have much longer as a species. Sure they have high tech weaponry but their lack of warp drive is a crippling weakness to them ever being a really major player in the galaxy.
Not to mention the fact that the Tyranids are crawling up their backsides and when it comes to the bugs I believe that the Imperium's philosophy of "Guns.. LOTS of Guns" will win out over the Tau outlook of "A few really good guns."

On the Tau's side I don't think they would ever really want to incorporate humanity into their empire. Since that would mean they would be outnumbered in their own society by a bunch of fighting mad psyker capable monkeys. That just spells uprising.

 

I just had a scary thought. It is highly suggested in Tau fluff that the Eldar created them. Now what if the Eldar chose to give the tau access to the webway? They would no longer have any issues with warp travel and bieng a very mobile army normaly they could cause the imperium a lot of grief.

 

The T'au are the one faction in the 40K universe open to alternate philosophies, even if they view them as innately inferior to the Greater Good. So as long as the Imperium keeps its anti-xeno policy (and they will keep it to the bitter end), a true alliance between the two races is impossible, because nobody wants to be buddies with people who are religiously and politically obligated to shoot you. If the Imperium continues to decline and the T'au continue to expand to the point where the T'au surpass the Imperium, I can see the Imperium dying and having its useful bits absorbed into the greater good.

 

Impossible, the imperium would destroy the Tau long before such an event would take place. Once the Tau become a credible threat or at such a time the imperium perceives them as such they will be destroyed.

 

In the Dawn of War game, if you win as Tau the end clip talks of culling the humans on Kronus.

discuss

 

the DoW series isn't official GW canon. A made up story with a Made up Chapter. Particularly stupid if you ask me.

CP

 

Actually, I was under the impression that absolutly anything stamped with a Warhammer logo (including Dawn of War, Sabertooth games etc) is canon. Well thats if you want to consider it canon, remembering that everything and nothing is officially canon

As for a possible diplomatic alliance between the Tau Empire and the Terran Imperium, I can't see that happening at all. An alliance of convienience (effectively just being an unofficial ceasefire) is about as far as it would go.

In terms of Tau Technology, they havn't yet surpassed the Imperium's technological capabilites - although are fast approaching it and will soon surpass it. Although Dark Age technology of mankind is so much more advanced than anything the Tau can muster currently.

And as for the Imperium's capability of destroying the Tau Empire, it is both possible and impossible in the current timeline (999.M41.) - In the sense that the Imperium is capable of mustering the arms needed to destroy the Tau Empire, but they are faced with much more pressing concerns (Black Crusades, Waaaghs!, Hive Fleets etc) therefore meaning that any atttempt to entirely crush the Tau Empire would be irrational (the Damocles Crusade is a prime example of this).

 

Just a reminder- it's Tau not T'au, T'au is their homeworld.

 

The actual Imperium would never think of joining with them. Governors have worked with them before because they are on the verge of Imperial space where no Administration adept dares to go nor any Inquisitors. Officially, these planetary rulers would be put to death in the more central Imperium.