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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
How to fix Tzeentch Daemon Armies.


Ok there was and in some dark places (normally the daemon or CSM forums) an argument about Horrors being crappy now.
Most of this comes from things like they are now overcost because previously they had over 90% chance to cast either 2-3-4d6 shots a turn depending on the size of the unit. Now generating their own dice they have 50/25/12.5% chance based on the same size of units trying to get off the same size of spell.
The bonus they got was that Daemonic magic was opened up to them and they could summon lots of friends to fight with them or cursed earth to make the saving throw better but in doing eat more than their fair share of your dice.
OR
Now they can be used as Warp Batteries for other creatures to get off a load of powers (though previously this was not required).


So the big overall is nurf, nurf, nurf. Though summoning Heralds and Screamers is great.


The ideas I put forward the other night to a few friends what will be looked in to is.


1) Horrors can act as they currently do so generate WC and spells as they are allowed to. BUT if they choose to use Flickering Fire (Tzeentch Primus) they do so under 6th edition rules.
So they do the leadership check, they are denied WITHOUT the opponent using his deny dice, BUT in doing so they generate NO Warp Charge that turn until their next psy phase where you get the same option again.
If instead they want to cast the other spell they have generated (cursed earth for example) they have to use the 7th edition rules and generate Warp Charge as they normally would.


2) The other suggestion was the Horrors are stuck with Flickering Fire and all the rules they used with it under 6th edition and generate no warp charge regardless.
You would however lose the bonuses of 7th edition larger pool of spells. So you are still open to have heralds and princes and greater daemons generating those extra dice and playing with them.




Both of these would mean that they do not loss a substantial amount of fire power that they did in the 6th-7th switch, This in the case of option 1 also would mean a Tzeentch army would no longer dominate the Psychic Phase if it chose to actually use Flickering Fires on multiple units (currently just sitting their and doing nothing but generate dice for someone else to use) or dominate the Deny phase for the same reason.
Also this would make larger Tzeentch armies able to scale in to larger games, though of course still not be overwhelming the psy phase offensively or defensively.

Tell us what you think.
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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Honestly, I wish the codex just gave them a shooting attack like flamers, and like last edition...
 

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Rattlehead
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The first and big change:

Warpflame: A weapon with this special rule confers a -1 penalty to any Cover Saves taken by the target unit.

Apart from that, I think giving them an additional Warp Charge that can only be used by the squad as well as their normally generated Warp Charge would work (so they'd always generate one, plus another one to three based on the squad size).
 

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Mmh. i think that in order to fix them, whe should just give them a torrent flamer attack.
D6 str+1, Ap5, soulblaze. that's it. They can still generate warp charges, if 10-15 they generate 1, if 16-20 they generate 2. this should give them an useful weapon and psy usability without being broken and used as cheap mana batteries
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
This one is soooo much different to the same thread I put on another forum. That one effectively drew out a load of people saying

L2P
or
Use another spell then
or
Oh noes your army is now broken, don't like it, sell it and get a new one... :(
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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The first and big change:

Warpflame: A weapon with this special rule confers a -1 penalty to any Cover Saves taken by the target unit.

Apart from that, I think giving them an additional Warp Charge that can only be used by the squad as well as their normally generated Warp Charge would work (so they'd always generate one, plus another one to three based on the squad size).
Swapping Warpflame so it doesn't give MEQ opponents a buff 2/3 of the time would be a big plus, certainly, but based on the fantasy rules and such, tzeentch's fickleness is supposed to be played out in hurting/helping enemy units in equal measure. Of course, fantasy only gives enemies regeneration 6+ (FNP, basically) on a roll of 6 with flamers, IIRC, so... that vs 2/3 of the time is a bit borked. I'd rather see Warpflame vanish entirely. Don't think that'll happen, though.

Mmh. i think that in order to fix them, whe should just give them a torrent flamer attack.
D6 str+1, Ap5, soulblaze. that's it. They can still generate warp charges, if 10-15 they generate 1, if 16-20 they generate 2. this should give them an useful weapon and psy usability without being broken and used as cheap mana batteries
Why give them a shooting attack and generate warpflame? Are you saying this flamer should be a psychic power that still needs to be manifested based on warp charge? If so, I don't think that addresses mayegelt's point--I mean sure, the ramping up of warp charge to damage dealt is clearly a relict of 6e, but still, then if you have a minimum size squad, you're still drawing from elsewhere to fill in that power's casting. And if it's not a shooting attack for one Horror only, or something, then why generate warp charge at all?

Like I intimated, I'd prefer if Horrors weren't psykers at all, but like last edition, each Horror simply had a shooting attack. Less randomness, perhaps, which "isn't tzeentchi" according to design studio peeps, but if you define "randomness" as "chances to fail or under-perform," then I resent your imposition of randomness at all.

This one is soooo much different to the same thread I put on another forum. That one effectively drew out a load of people saying

L2P
or
Use another spell then
or
Oh noes your army is now broken, don't like it, sell it and get a new one... :(
Yeah, well...

When Horrors are useful as warp charge banks for Malefic daemonfactories and to hang back as scoring units, but nothing else, the unit is clearly broken. Yes, there's a way to play them if you're a WAAC player, but if there's no middle ground between terrible and superb in the ways you can field the unit, quite frankly, I don't give a damn. That's not a unit that can be used effectively by casual players, when GW has stated time and again that they're designing the game so that "players can use their armies," and that "they are a miniature company, not a rules system company," and such: in effect, they are stating they're a casual gamer company. Horrors are broken with the current rule set: broken good or broken bad, I don't care.
 

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Why give them a shooting attack and generate warpflame? Are you saying this flamer should be a psychic power that still needs to be manifested based on warp charge? If so, I don't think that addresses mayegelt's point--I mean sure, the ramping up of warp charge to damage dealt is clearly a relict of 6e, but still, then if you have a minimum size squad, you're still drawing from elsewhere to fill in that power's casting. And if it's not a shooting attack for one Horror only, or something, then why generate warp charge at all?

Like I intimated, I'd prefer if Horrors weren't psykers at all, but like last edition, each Horror simply had a shooting attack. Less randomness, perhaps, which "isn't tzeentchi" according to design studio peeps, but if you define "randomness" as "chances to fail or under-perform," then I resent your imposition of randomness at all.
what i meant is that they could have a normal shooting attack and still generate warpcharges. thinking twice that would be bad.
maybe, to still give them that magic the gathering feeling, we could say that:
-they have a shooting attack (a torrent flamer like i said before)
-the champion generate 1 dispel dice, an upgrade (10 pts?) could have him generate a warp charge as well. That way the bonus is easy removable and would be pretty costly to have.
Imo, they should be allowed to mess with magic stuff in some way.
Maybe instead than warp charge a roll on a chart a la Rogue Psyker just as in the Defenders of Vraks list? a minor random power...
 

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Rattlehead
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Swapping Warpflame so it doesn't give MEQ opponents a buff 2/3 of the time would be a big plus, certainly, but based on the fantasy rules and such, tzeentch's fickleness is supposed to be played out in hurting/helping enemy units in equal measure. Of course, fantasy only gives enemies regeneration 6+ (FNP, basically) on a roll of 6 with flamers, IIRC, so... that vs 2/3 of the time is a bit borked. I'd rather see Warpflame vanish entirely. Don't think that'll happen, though.
Yeah, it's still pretty crappy in Fantasy, but you can work around it by simply using Lore of Metal (which is really nice, even if it's not quite as universally applicable as Death or Shadow which you could bring if you were unmarked), Regen 6+ is negligible since most things will already have a Ward, and Warpflame works to your benefit a lot more as T3 or lower is far more common in Fantasy (oh hey Cold One Knights/Dragon Princes).

Simply giving them a shooting attack does make far more sense though. 18" range Str4 AP4 Assault 2.

Randomness is cool when you can bring it as an option, but when it's included in the basic units it's a total bum. It's why I think Tzeentch Warriors of Chaos are way better than Tzeentch Daemons - Daemons roll randomly for absolutely everything, even down to your Magic Items, while Tzeentch WoC are just tougher than regular WoC and have a cute Channeling thing going on; you can plan around Tzeentch WoC and build your army accordingly with Ironcurse Icons or HW/Shield dudes but you can also do the silly randomness with the Blasted Standard and the Sword of Change as well as Tzeentch's magic lore (but you get the choice of the more reliable Metal if you want to use Tzeentch Warriors under the Glittering Robe to make your friends hate you). Daemons get no choice but have to go the random route, which is fine if you want that but it's nice to be able to bring a reliable core of your army with randomness added on, rather than inherent randomness in the build.
 

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Entropy Fetishist
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Yeah, it's still pretty crappy in Fantasy, but you can work around it by simply using Lore of Metal (which is really nice, even if it's not quite as universally applicable as Death or Shadow which you could bring if you were unmarked), Regen 6+ is negligible since most things will already have a Ward, and Warpflame works to your benefit a lot more as T3 or lower is far more common in Fantasy (oh hey Cold One Knights/Dragon Princes).

Simply giving them a shooting attack does make far more sense though. 18" range Str4 AP4 Assault 2.
IIRC, the last edition version was something like S4, AP -, Assault 3.

And yeah, the workaround here is to take Malefic instead of Tzeentch--still...
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Most of the "pick another spell" thing seemed to suggest that go for Bolt of Change. It is a nice WC1 24", Beam, S4+D6 (5+D6 if heralded), AP2, Assault 1, Warpflame. What is an incredible spell now that beams don't lose strength, as you average S7.5 (8.5 if heralded) and AP2 hitting everyone in a bit straight line of 24" including tanks.
This has of course grown the popularity of the 11-12 man units to gen 2 WC a unit so getting 75% chance to cast on their own dice.
It's big trouble of course is that Warpflame as you are going to hit a lot of units in theory sometimes hitting just 1-2 models at a time, so they will survive. Unless a lot of focus goes on to killing them with many shots being carefully placed to avoid hitting extra things.

My preference is still option 2 of my ones as it wouldn't give them any buff from the previous edition what was fine. They wouldn't be Focus Batteries for other things. Also as said other armies that had Psychics wouldn't just get buried under huge numbers of deny dice.
 
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