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When I said "give them an arbitrary penalty" I meant that I would resolve the combat in a single attack roll for all players, and they receive a penalty to their attack bonus until they can rest, making multiple combat encounter over the course of an adventure very risky.

I do add flavor to my combats. The problem ain't the flavor, it's the lenght. My players don't want to fight. They feel it takes away time that could be used to advance the plot. They don't find it a source of suspense.

It's probably because I have difficulty to adjust the difficulty of the fight. When it's too easy, it's a pointless waste of time. When it's too hard, we might as well not play if we are going to fail anyway, and when it's in-between, well the time it takes to recover is debilitating to the story. ( I usually play in worlds where magic does not exist, so there is no healing spells or potion, only good old fashionned rest. I could play in a world that include supernatural, but it's not the same feel, and my players love the historical medieval theme there is in my games.)

So I usually don't do any random encounters. The only fight I do are when it's important to the plot, or when NPCs are actively wanting them dead. However, it's hard to have the NPC appear as a threat, it's difficult to make it appear competent if he send incompetent lackeys.
Hmm ok, it seems your players want their cake and to eat it as well. :laugh:

If you're playing in a historical type setting, meaning no magic and such, then I would play most combat like it was a social encounter.

If your guys are sneaking into a castle simply work it off of skill rolls rather then combat rolls.

Example:

The party attempts to enter Castle Ravenloft (god I miss Ravenloft). They find several guards at the gate.

DM: Rouge make a skill check to see if you climb the wall then I need a sneak check to ensure you're undetected.

Rouge: I pass and move to the first guard, I slash him across the throat with my dagger.

DM: Roll grapple check and then an attack check at a negative penality.

Rouge: I got (randon roll) and (random roll). Whats the deal.

DM: You take him down and kill him but you caused enough noise for another guard to over hear you on the battlements, he's heading over to check things out.

Ranger: I fire my bow hoping to take him in the neck and kill him.

DM: Roll at a negative multiplyer...

You get my idea.

Start dealing wth combat like you would with bluff, and other similar skills. Only use the normal D&D type encounter for the large scale plot combats, rather then every combat.

I would also recommend letting the first round of combat going normally then adjusting the numbers as you need it to the encounter. If you make an encounter where you're PC's are shruging off damge from the bad guys turn it up on the next turn. If they're getting spanked turn the damage down.

Personally I don't think D&D is the best ruleset for that type of game, especially in 4th edition. 2nd or 3rd edtition sure but 4th really focuses on combat. If your guys prefer the Social/Story heavy games you may have more fun with games done by Whitewolf or Fantasy Flight.
 

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When I said "give them an arbitrary penalty" I meant that I would resolve the combat in a single attack roll for all players, and they receive a penalty to their attack bonus until they can rest, making multiple combat encounter over the course of an adventure very risky.



I do add flavor to my combats. The problem ain't the flavor, it's the lenght. My players don't want to fight. They feel it takes away time that could be used to advance the plot. They don't find it a source of suspense.

It's probably because I have difficulty to adjust the difficulty of the fight. When it's too easy, it's a pointless waste of time. When it's too hard, we might as well not play if we are going to fail anyway, and when it's in-between, well the time it takes to recover is debilitating to the story. ( I usually play in worlds where magic does not exist, so there is no healing spells or potion, only good old fashionned rest. I could play in a world that include supernatural, but it's not the same feel, and my players love the historical medieval theme there is in my games.)

So I usually don't do any random encounters. The only fight I do are when it's important to the plot, or when NPCs are actively wanting them dead. However, it's hard to have the NPC appear as a threat, it's difficult to make it appear competent if he send incompetent lackeys.
See, I don't see WHY they don't like the fights. Detracts from the plot? I thought RPG's were meant to be dashing heroics and acts of bravery.

Try this way, I know some people have said about WHFRPG is hard to hit when you start and all that, but I think some folk use the rulebook to literally. It's meant to be a guide, a framework to help play the game. It's different when it's two opposing armies for 40k or FoW or something, but in RPG it's totally different.

Try for example, your big evil dude has sent his top henchmen after you boys, they're in say, a bar when they corner them, maybe someone's living room. They are going to kick the living hoop out of your boys. How do you get around it and even up the odds? Setting spirits ablaze in a bar, causes a fire and allows your boys time to escape/channel the enemy to fight them one at a time/possibly set a few of tehm ablaze.

If the enemy are far too weak, have something else happen, someone hears the struggle and comes to their aid, even if they are the bad guy.

To DM a fight you've got to use your imagination to inspire the other players to use theirs. If it's all going wrong, bend the rules, if it's too hard, bend the rules, too easy, you guessed it, bend the rules. We often do fights where someone will say, 'I'm going to jump onto the table, and try to kick the pitcher at one of the guards before leaping at him and trying to cleave his head', he rolls for dexterity, then weapon skill. The DM makes a roll for the guard's parry and or reaction, then play it by ear. The player could either, succeed - he volleys the pitcher at the guard, soaking/distracting him with it, then leaps at him and cleaves him good style. Sometimes we roll for wounding depending on the situ, other times iff its successful it'd be a case of 'you have a grown man hacking your shoulder with an axe, would you get up and carry on fighting?' so he'd be out the fight. He could fail the attack and just kick the pitcher at the guard then be stood on the table like a tit. Or totally fail, slip on the table and end up on his back at the guard's feet. It's all to do with the imagination and making it fun. If you can't make it fun, and your players won't make it fun, it won't be fun.

It's gotta be hard questing in a real life medevil (*sp?) world with no healing and stuff, as this would be a MASSIVE plot slower. 'You've got to rest your arm wound for 8 weeks before you can carry on', it's no wonder no one wants to fight. Seems they're caught betwix a rock and a hard place. Questing without fighting is like a quest to go to the shops and buy a loaf of bread, fighting without healing is like trying to drive with the brakes on.

Just a question and I swear I'm not taking the mickey with it, what do you do for the rest of the quest when there's no fighting? I mean, ordinarily when we're running them, it'll be the story a-b. Within the story are catches and clues that can speed up/slow down teh adventure, also in with that are the possibility of random fights (in a bar, out in the wilds, down a dark alley), definate fights (plot changers, the bosses worst men tip up, then his mid, then his best or whatever), then usually a massive escape with some fighting on the way out.

I'm just having trouble seeing what an rpg would be like without fighting... :)

Keep it fast, light-hearted and be happy to bend the rules and it'll all go swimmingly. :-D
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
how do you play without fighting
Well, you see, we don't often play the damn big dashing heroes comin' in to save the day.

Usually, my PCs are powerful compared to most NPCs, but when compared to a Noble, well, then sucks to be them (authority equals asskicking in my games). So, usually, they'll get the NPCs to fight one-another and come in to claim the spoils.

In fact, most PCs we play are manipulative bastards, or bastards period.

So plotwise, it's usually more about intrigues, seduction, blackmail, treason and trust more than acts of bravery.

As for gaming, we like to get up and act out the scenes we play. In the end, it looks like a play, except with no rehersals, no text, no props and no audience...
 

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Well, you see, we don't often play the damn big dashing heroes comin' in to save the day.

Usually, my PCs are powerful compared to most NPCs, but when compared to a Noble, well, then sucks to be them (authority equals asskicking in my games). So, usually, they'll get the NPCs to fight one-another and come in to claim the spoils.

In fact, most PCs we play are manipulative bastards, or bastards period.

So plotwise, it's usually more about intrigues, seduction, blackmail, treason and trust more than acts of bravery.
Well that sounds awesome!

You should share how you accomplish this in a campaign, as I struggle to include political intrigue and infighting with the NPCs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Well, I design the world mostly as we play in it, the cause of any event can easily be retconned to suit our need.

But the most important part is this : First, I ask my players, as a group, what kind of story do they want to tell with their characters and what do they whant to happen to them. One wanted to have a story where he twart the arranged marriage of his one true love so that she may be with him, another player wanted to play a noble struggling to find a way to finance his gambling addiction while not giving shame on his family, another player wanted to play a rich merchant, a member of the gnostic sect hunted down by the inquisition who lost friends and family because of it and is bitter of the world, and the last one wanted to play a spy.

Then, we decide on the plot : The kingship in the kingdom is matrilineal, Foreign princes become king of the kingdom by marrying the princess, who is the cousin and true love of character 1. However, Character 1 is rather naive and dim-witted, and the other Characters will want to have him become king of the kingdom instead of the foreign prince, hoping to control what an incompetent king character 1 would become.

Then, we agreed to have the player character cooperate until character one finally become king, and then they will antagonize each other, until most characters get killed. We agreed to let the story unfold like a classical tragedy, with the focus on the villains, their rise to power, and their downfall because of the heroes.

We played a system that the other players did not know how to play. So, I asked of the player, before I revealed how character creation works, to find about 5 things that their characters would like to gain from the coup d'état, and that would be the focus of the story from their perspective.

This is when player 2 had his character become more complex than simply a gambler. He decided he wanted his character loyal to his friend the prince, but in the same time, secretely in love with the princess : by making the princess and the prince closer to get together, the princess also became closer to him. We decided we would later on have this character torn between his lust and his loyalty, which the player actually playing it gleefully accepted.

So know, we have a plot, and we have flesh-out and complex characters. Next, we need the stats for these characters. We know what the characters will do, so it does not matter what they can or can't do. We assume they will drive the plot we agreed on. Stats, however, will dictate How they will drive the plot, and that choice is up to the players.

Then, we have Npcs. When a Npc is important, I always try to give out their names first, let the players imagine what this character is like.

Then, when a Pc and a Npc met, sometimes, I will, more referee than game master, tell the players : your character meet with Lord Falsevor. Tell, me, what does the guy look like, and what have you heard on this guy?

The player will then tell me some details and juicy gossip about the Npc, and then, I will ask :

What is it you don't know about this character? what is it that you don't know about him, but will be relevant to the plot, and how?

The trick is to be more a referee than a storyteller. The players are the storytellers. It is not up to me to initially dismiss an idea because it is "not original" or because it makes the Pc "overpowered". That is up to the other players.

This is probably why they don't like fight scenes : when a fight erupts, I retake control of the game. They lose that control and a lot of freedom. Suddenly, their stats become limits instead of being inspiration. And, more importantly, the more we play the fight by the rules, the more likely the plot we agreed on will become impossible as a result, and this is not an issue we want to happen, as a group. That basically means that we know in advance how the fight will go, and that makes it not interesting.
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
God, I look like a dadgum crybaby in the early posts of this thread.

Mea culpa guys.
 

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I know this is an old thread, but just though I might contribute.

My D&D(3.5) group has no quarrels when it comes to combat. We enjoy it. But we probably enjoy it because we don't play with accurate rules. For example

We came across our campaign villain, a necromancer, after a bit of dialogue he summoned some skeletons and ran off. During the dialogue he pissed off our barbarian who immediately charged at him, but the skeleton got in his way. So our DM decided that he was in such a rage that he immediately defeated 3 of the skeletons (no dice rolling). while that happened 3 more skeletons passed him and advanced upon the rest of our group, our cleric used "Turn Undead" and caused them to run directly back towards our barbarian, still filled with rage and destroyed them all as they ran from our cleric.

6 skeletons dead from one barbarian and the help of a cleric. No rolling.
 

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Or if your players just do not like the fight mechanics bypass them completely. Unless your out to get your players and kill them off you can simply ask what they would do in a fight then give them some narrative about how it went down. If the overall goal if for them to win and find clue x, tell them they won, took some bruises and minor wounds and found clue x.
 
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