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Discussion Starter #1
I've had a lot of VERY boring, drilling related lectures this week and as a result have turned my mind more and more to the problems we're all likely to face at this year's GT, if for no-other reason than to stop me cracking up completely.

So with this in mind i present my guide to ending the flying circus.

There are several things an army needs in order to do this successfully i believe. I'll go through these step by step and explain my reasoning.

1) Bait/ expendable units. In Tau this tactic is known as the Kau'Yon, or patient hunter. It basically involves keeping your units, small, cheap and expendable but with plenty of redundancy built into the list. If the only targets available are cheap units that are going to die in 1 round of combat then harlies are going to have problems. Proper positioning is essential however. Each unit must be >6" apart so that no-consolidation is possible and the unit bunched up so that they can't strike the end of your unit killing 1 or 2. With any luck those fruity [email protected]@rds are going to die as soon as they've taken your bait.

2) The ability to put lots of glances onto Av 12 skimmers. An obvious one this. You ned 9 glances on average to kill a falcon. It is worth noting however that this number will decrease as you remove weapons. A falcon with no weapons dies on a 4,5 or 6. These lists also contain very little firepower, so keeping the falcons glanced enables you to act with some measure of impunity - as the return fire you will recieve is likely to be negligable. If he wants to fire his falcons then he's going to have to hide for a turn, which is another turn you don't have harlies in your pants.

3) Maneuverability. You must be able to capitalise on the advantage given to you by your bait units and any falcons that you manage to down. You'll need to get close to get past that fruity veil of tears and send the clowns O'Doom back to 1992 where thay should have stayed. You'll also need to be maneuverable enough to flee should things take an unexpected turn. The more time you have to glance falcons before the clowns come for you the better.

4) The ability to misdirect. If you can land behind the wave of advancing falcons, you can greatly increase your chances of achieving no 2. You may also force the attack out of shape, and make it more ragged and singular. 1 Harlie falcon at a time is a hell of a lot easier to deal with than 3 at once.

5) The ability to take out their few support units with a minimum of effort. these support units are not going to be big or expensive but will prove to be a pain in the ass. Vibrocannons stopping your tanks from shooting at falcons and aiding in objective 2, jetbikes charging a unit and holding up a unit that should be blasting harlies are all bad things. Fortunately, the Harlie/falcon combo is an expensive one and as a result these support units are likely to be easilly taken out if you put the effort in. If you can pull off point 1 well too, this may also leave said beard-monger with nothing but 3 constantly glanced falcons flying around, too scared to drop their cargo because there's no target of opportunity that will be worth the loss of over 160pts of harlies. At this point you have the minor win.

6) When playing a list like this, your major focus should be on destruction of the danger to your army. Objectives are important still, however i'm sure we're all familiar with tales of 6 harlies destroying 600-700 pts of another's army. You can't capture objectives if you have no army left.

Hope some of you guys found that helpful and educational. If any one has anything else to add, or even disagrees with some of my points above then please step forward and say so. I'd love to discuss this topic further.
 

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Are Harlies really that broken in today's rules? Crikey. Does no one care about game balance over there?

This looks like a good strategy. I'd love to know how well it works in practice. Keep us posted.

EDIT: Maybe some army-specific tactics might be useful here too. ie, how would Orks best follow your strategy, or what's the best way for Necrons to do what you've outlined, etc.
 

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Stomp, you forum whore you! Harlies as such aren't as broken as some on the internet would have you believe (Mine have pretty much done as well as my Banhsees used to do in the way I use them, just with more fruity rules like Hit and Run being a bit more useful) but the Harlequin Falcon combo is undoubtedly extremely effective. I only use one lot of this, and consider 3 a bit filthy against a lot of armies.

However overspecialisation does breed weakness in this case and GT players need to find ways to exploit these. One of the oft-overlooked elements of GT army build is "Could I beat myself?". If you don't have the tools to beat a similar list to yours, its not a good all-round list. Harlie/Falcon spam lists would probably score bore draws against each other as they have little AT in most cases and what they do have is easily silenced (Falcons)
 

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Discussion Starter #4
:lol:

I'm bored!
 

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for imperial players, a culexus solves all problems;
assault the shadowseer, souldrain it successfully and if you've positioned your assassin properly, then the fight's over and the clowns are taking a Ld7 moral test...
or else you could just hide your assassin behind some nice fat cover and deny the harlies a solid area of ground as any psykers caught near it will again be forced to take a Ld test or leg it...

keep in mind as long you keep the culexus out of sight of any vehicles, any infantry will need to take a Ld test in order to shoot and/or assault the bugger...

cheers!
 

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experiment 626 said:
for imperial players, a culexus solves all problems;
assault the shadowseer, souldrain it successfully and if you've positioned your assassin properly, then the fight's over and the clowns are taking a Ld7 moral test...
or else you could just hide your assassin behind some nice fat cover and deny the harlies a solid area of ground as any psykers caught near it will again be forced to take a Ld test or leg it...

keep in mind as long you keep the culexus out of sight of any vehicles, any infantry will need to take a Ld test in order to shoot and/or assault the bugger...

cheers!
If the Culexus assaults the Harlequins it will be taking about 12-18 WS5 I6 rending attacks to the face. It won't get the chance to souldrain before being killed. Oh and the chances are that it would be the clowns assaulting the assassin, not the other way round.

Now while I'm not too up on the Culexus rules, its definitely only available in Witch/Daemonhunters so is not really a viable general tactic. Players at tournament level will most likely go for the much more effective vs. almost everyone Eversor or Callidus. In fact the callidus could be much more effective if it can catch the clowns in the open with its mind flame and then shapes its charge well enough in the assault phase.
 

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anathema said:
If the Culexus assaults the Harlequins it will be taking about 12-18 WS5 I6 rending attacks to the face. It won't get the chance to souldrain before being killed. Oh and the chances are that it would be the clowns assaulting the assassin, not the other way round.

Now while I'm not too up on the Culexus rules, its definitely only available in Witch/Daemonhunters so is not really a viable general tactic. Players at tournament level will most likely go for the much more effective vs. almost everyone Eversor or Callidus. In fact the callidus could be much more effective if it can catch the clowns in the open with its mind flame and then shapes its charge well enough in the assault phase.
luckily for our plucky pariah, his souldrain goes before any blows are struck! (think of it as a special I11 type of attack) there's no saves of any kind either and the assassin can always ignore non-psyker models when assaulting and pick out the shadowseer...
as long as you're smart about moving him into assault, he should be able to suck out the shadowseer's lifeforce and thus end combat before it really begins as there will no longer be an models in base-to-base to continue on...
getting the drop on the clowns is the hard bit as it will require carefull deployment and guesstimation of ranges. still, as long as he starts the eldar turn in close proximinity to a psyker, the psyker must take a Ld test or leg it. (and conviently take their unit packing off home with them!)

any imperial army can take an assassin as an ally as long they also take the mandetory inquisitor lord & retinue. (as you must have an inquisitor present to take an assassin!)
an allied inquisitor lord w/psycannon or scourging is also a welcomed addition too as those both ignore invulnerable saves...

so if the clowns become the new 'ultiment abusive army of choice', then imperial players should spend the 200'ish pts to kit up on those 'ignore invulnerable save' weapons... (the culexus is simply a beast no matter who you face due to his soulless & etherium rules!)

cheers!
 

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Discussion Starter #9
hahaha, Unfortunately not.
 

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I have played a few games against harlies and the thing that worked best for me was heavy bolter attack bikes, you drive up nice and close and let rip you wont kill them all but they are going to get dropped beow half strength.
 

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Here's a challenge: A way for DA to beat this unit?

1) There are no bait units, DA units are so expensive you'd lose far more pts than they just for the hope of trapping them.

2) Manoueverability- very tough, Rhino's are coffins against multiple Str 6 shots. The Eldar will always be more mobile.


Any way for them to beat Space Clowns that doesn't involved your entire 1500pts army concentrating on one unit to the exclusion of the rest of the Eldar? Or the need to take non-DA units that aren't allowed in tournaments?
 

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I played the clowns against Imp guards and they are quite fragile to shooting, even poor shooting with S3.

They have a 4+ inv save, so normally you will loos one for every two wounds.

With a toughness of 3 there are pretty much nothing that won't wound on at least 4+, heavy bolters and the likes of it (Tau comes to mind) will wound on a 2+.

So I think the best thing to do against clowns is to shoot them as soon as they come with in range and then sack a unit to hold them of and shoot again next turn.

It sounds easier than it is but it is possible.

For DA the biggest problem is as always the lack of heavy weapons in affordable squads and the lack of the ultimate Eldar killer the Librarian with familiar.

The problem with Harlequins is that they don’t come alone.
 

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Shoot them?

With Veil (who doesn't take Veil) the average spotting distance is 14" with their average charge range 15-16".

But even that requires them to be stupid enough to walk into a gunline- most Space Clowns ride in a Skimmer of Indestructable Doom.

So, no, you shouldn't be able to shoot them unless your opponent is really bad, or they have already chewed through their points worth in close combat.
 

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Or unless you play properly. A well-placed unit can prevent their effective charge, and a single round of Rapid Fire from two squads of firepower will shatter them.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
No, Master J, pretty much has it right.

What the space clowns will do, when played right, is zoom up in an indestructable skimmer. Maneuver, so as to only contact 2-3 models beat them next reound, consolidate and move on.

I'm seeing a lot of posts where people seem to dismiss the flying circus. They are wrong. Seriously, this army is totally brutal when used by a pro (Like at a GT final - think tomatoes).

If you haven't seen it yet, then you need to find some better opponents.
 

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Not saying they aren't nasty, but they aren't indestructible and neither their skimmer.
And if you give them a Falcon and that is the only thing you can give them then they will lack numbers.

And Stomp, in theory you are right, contact only 2-3 models and splat.
As easy as stalking falling back marines, can be done but in most of the cases wont work, so I say clowns is not the end all be all units. But it is still a scary unit.

And I made a mistake in my last post they do not have a 4+ inv save only have a 5+ inv;
so if shoot by a Imp guard squad (<12" away) you get 20 shoots that produce 10 hits of which 5 wounds and the clowns will only save 1-2 wounds, this gives you 3-4 dead clowns.

In a skimmer they will not charge until round three, as they will start round one moving in too strike, turn two disembarking and first in round three they will be able to assault. Might as well take them on foot and give the some more bodies.

If you guys are worried about clowns you should really dread the new Death Company, they have the same cheese set-up but a 3+ save and a 6+ “save everything when it goes south…”
And when you thought they made rhino-rushes impossible, they were just kidding you,
am I wrong but didn’t over-charged engine have a break down on 6+ rule?
Now they don’t any way and after what I heard they will cost 30pts to field as they do for Dark Angels, they even might be free for the DC!?!
 

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And Stomp, in theory you are right, contact only 2-3 models and splat.
As easy as stalking falling back marines, can be done but in most of the cases wont work, so I say clowns is not the end all be all units. But it is still a scary unit.
It does work extremely well actually. I've been doing that since I put them in my army and have had great success with that exact tactic. I'd even go as far to say that I value the Shadowseer for the plasma grenades more than Veil, as my harlies hardly ever get shot as they're never outside of combat in my opponents turn. Bouncing them around between units and using units as stepping stones is the most effective way to use them.

In a skimmer they will not charge until round three, as they will start round one moving in too strike, turn two disembarking and first in round three they will be able to assault. Might as well take them on foot and give the some more bodies.
Like many people, you assume that they'll spend a turn in the open before charging. This doesn't happen. You can disembark and charge as long as the transport hasn't moved so if you leave a unit within 13-18" of a mounted Harlequin squad, there's a damn good chance they'll charge you straight out of the transport. I've had my Harlequins charge turn 2 in quite a few games as my opponent forgets that they're in the Falcon and moves too close.

luckily for our plucky pariah, his souldrain goes before any blows are struck! (think of it as a special I11 type of attack) there's no saves of any kind either and the assassin can always ignore non-psyker models when assaulting and pick out the shadowseer...
as long as you're smart about moving him into assault, he should be able to suck out the shadowseer's lifeforce and thus end combat before it really begins as there will no longer be an models in base-to-base to continue on...
Cheeky stuff! :lol: I didn't know that. However, once the Harlequins have lost the Shadowseer, they can hit and run and then charge you in their turn or just shoot the Culexus. The Shadowseer isn't the biggest problem in the Flying Circus, and spending 200 points to get rid of it isn't the most effective use of resources IMO. Still a nice little trick though!
 

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Well this is true, and I forgot about the 24" move, I gotten used to play marines. But still the same when you disembark you cannot assault if the vehicle moved so you have to go straight for the enemy and hope for a good fleet move. But I see your point. But still risky too bring 6 guys in that close to the enemy. You really need three units or at least two with good CC capability to be a real threat.

I for one would say that a banshee squad would be equally bad or even worse to face, as they could take a wave serpent and max out at 10 models.

Actually if you play some Mathhammer you end up with:
Six clowns fully kitted with a falcon would end up killing ~7 marines if you roll 4-5 rending attacks. In this I only calculated the wounds the clowns would do not the falcon.

A banshee squad of 10 would kill the same amount of marines and totally ignore their armour.
And this squad would almost leave you with point to spare on a Dark reaper squad, you only need to raise like 10 pts or so. And yes the Banshees have a fancy ride of their own.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I've seen 6 harlequins destroy an entire army before now. Not in isolated incidents either. Week after week against good players.

Imagine this scenario: Falcon drives up a flank 24" and is hidden by terrain and is 6" - 21" away from your army. You can't shoot it and even if you do, you need 9 glances to kill it. Next turn the harlies disembark, gaining nearly 3" of movement from the disembark move. The falcon then tank shocks their intended victims closer to the harlies, or shoots something. The harlies then mve 6" totally ignoring the cover. They then fleet up to 6" and charge another 6" and are on you. If you've left squads close together. They'll get as close as possible and maneuver into position to get as many into combat as possible, whilst closing the gap onto your next unit. After giving you a sever butt raping and wiping out your unit before you even get to swing, they consolidate into your next unit. Your guard army doesn't know it yet, but they're all dead.

If your squads aren't close together, they'll adjust their movement accordingly so that only 1 harlie hits combat and gets the min no of models possible into it's kill zone. Likely, you'll be in combat in your turn, where the harlies have piled in and will then proceed to wipe out your unit. They are then free to consolidate, move 6", fleet and charge another 6" contacting your next uit. Meanwhile there is a whole eldar army shooting you to bits and you can't shoot the harlies because they are once again in combat.

If your units are spread thin and the harlies don't manage to get into combat a second time you'll struggle to kil them anyway because of the VOT. If they hit a unit and are stil stuck there after 2 turns of combat (Fearless troops say), they can hit and run at the end of your turn and then bounce into another, less able unit and kill it, or go back for more with the advantage of + 1 attack and S4 at I7.

Seriously, dude - fear the harlequins.
 
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