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Discussion Starter #1
No, it's not a joke (but that reminds me)... just another of my questions canvassing opinions on basic list building.

In a (codex SM) marine army, what would you consider a sensible ratio of troops to tanks (including dreads I suppose)?

I'm a big fan of troops, so I have a lot. Well on the way to that "whole battle-company" that I go on about. But no heavy armour. What would you think was the minimum necessary at:
1 - 1500 pts;
2 - 2500 pts.

(I'm creeping, ever so slowly, towards Apocalypse levels... :D )

Thanks for time and thought.

:cyclops:
 

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It's really a style thing at 1500 points and 2000 points. Personally, I tend to rely on my infantry more than armour. I'll take dreadnoughts and the occasional predator in a 2000 point army, and generally that means that I've got a good 60+ Space Marines already and the tank is just sort of filling a role gap that I haven't optimized a squad for (and generally, it's anti-armor duty.) Some people prefer to put much more weight on tanks, which is fine-- but Space Marine squads are able to muster comparable anti-infantry firepower (and in most cases, superior anti-infantry firepower) so the need for Predator Destructors and Vindicators are really rather limited. Whirlwinds have a place due to their indirect fire capability as well as the option to load them with Castellan missiles, which, in certain situations, are quite useful if you're of a more tactical mindset and less of a "chop 'em into bloody goo" mindset.


I can help you with the fluff aspect of it, though. If you're looking at a Battle Company, then consider the following:

You have 60 Tactical Space Marines, which always fight as Tactical Squads. You've got 20 Assault Marines, who can either fight in Assault Squads, bike squads, or provide crews for Land Speeders; and you have 20 Devastators, who fight either in Devastator Squads or provide crew for Predators, Land Raiders, Vindicators, Whirlwinds... basically, your heavy armour. Dreadnoughts are permanent armoury attachments to the Company, but in a chapter that has a fairly average number of dreadnoughts, there'll be at least one, and probably no more than three in a Company.

Companies do not "own" Predators, Vindicators, Whirlwinds, Land Speeders, Razorbacks, or most of the Chapter's Land Raiders. Most Companies have a single Land Raider at their disposal for the Company Command, as well as ten Rhinos and twenty bikes. Other, heavier armour has to be requisitioned from the armoury. While Razorbacks are transports in game terms, Company squads are ten-strong and don't fit inside them-- they're issued from the armoury for depeleted squads and for specialized missions. The Land Raiders that are not attached to a Battle Company are typically reserved for the sole use of the 1st Company.

Onto crew. Land Raiders require a crew of three Space Marines, one of whom is generally a techmarine (so you're really only down two Devastators if you're worried about keeping to 100 Space Marines in the Battle Company plus command.) Rhino chassis tanks generally require a crew of two Space Marines-- a driver and a gunner-- but Razorbacks and Rhinos are operated by the squad they are transporting, and have no set crew at all. Whirlwinds and Vindicators may, depending on the Chapter, be equipped with servitor loaders to speed up firing rates. Obviously, Land Speeders have a crew of two, so the most Land Speeders a Battle Company could put in the air would be ten. Some Chapters have limited numbers of Land Speeder Tempests, which are single-man gunships-- but most Chapters only have a handful of them and won't readily be fielded unless absolutely necessary, as they're rather hard to maintain.
 

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Are the tempests flown by assault marines or techmarines. They sound rather specialized. Also, what happens to the rhinos and razors once the squad gets out? Do they just sit there?
 

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Why on earth would the be flown by Assault Marines? Assault Marines get their job by being very very angry, and very very good at stabbing people. Neither skill is conducive to flying what is essentially a screaming metal deathtrap.
 

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Second edition Landspeeders were always shown as being crewed by assault marines Uber. (Check any SM codex from the time.)
It was more to do with speed and mobility than getting angry and bashing heads.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
My remembrence of the fluff is that 'vehicles are crewed by members of the reserve companies', but I don't have my codex to hand. Nor is it clear exactly to which vehicles it refers.

On assault marines flying speeders, in some ways I'm with Uber on this - what's the connection between flying a rocket-car and foaming at the gills waving a chainsword? - but in other ways I'm with Vash - speed and mobility is indeed the key.

I think the point is that Assault Squads (in other words, "the Codex Astartes units which are codified in the rules as Codex SM Fast Attacks but not Scout Bikers") do not necessarily equate to Assault Marines (in other words, "marines with jump packs, bolt pistols and close combat weapons"); my own company organisation is Assault Squad 7 for Assault Marines, and Assault Squad 8 for bikes and speeders (obviously, fielded as two seperate force-org slots...). Obviously, this is just my interpretation of the codex (No! It's Captain Allectus! HE'S the one who interprets the codex... I mean, Codex...). If it comes to it, I'm gonna paint the pilots of my speeders as 6th or 8th company but the gunners (and company markings on speeders) as my Battle Company.

Thanks all for your input, keep 'em coming!

:cyclops:
 

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Jac "Baneblade" O'Bite
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I think it depends on what Chapter we are talking about. Can't see Blood Angel or Space Wolves Assault Marines piloting the Speeders but other chapters I imagine would.

Not all chapters are as blood thirsty as those two. I could see Raven Guard mixing the two roles quiet well - same with Smurfs.

Assualt Marines an't like Khorne Berserkers after all are they.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Jacobite said:
I think it depends on what Chapter we are talking about. Can't see Blood Angel or Space Wolves Assault Marines piloting the Speeders but other chapters I imagine would.

Not all chapters are as blood thirsty as those two. I could see Raven Guard mixing the two roles quiet well - same with Smurfs.

Assualt Marines an't like Khorne Berserkers after all are they.
Interesting... I would say yeah they are, but beserkers are just... MORE.

The Assault Marines par excellence, basically, is how I've always looked at them. But that may be due to how I see the relationship between the Codex Astartes, the loyalist chapters and the traitor legions.

if RG 'crystalised' the doctrines of the Legions in the Codex, then the Legions which did not adhere to it, including the Traitor Legions, the Space Wolves and the Black Templars, but which obviously are the continuation of the Legions in some way, must retain something of that Legionary doctrine; they may therefore be regarded as *very very divergent* codex chapters/legions...

But again it comes to the question "are Assault Squads necessarilly made up of Assault Marines?" - I'd say no.

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Assault Marines from the Battle Companies do, in fact, crew their Land Speeders, as they're not used half as much as their in-game usefulness would imply. Land Speeders are essentially recon vehicles-- they're not particularly designed for a pitched battle, if you think about it.

As for the Tempest, it's the same deal, really. Techmarines probably CAN fly a land speede Tempest, but I'd think it'd be entrusted to a talented Assault Marine.

Incidentally, Assault Marines aren't necessarily choppy. They're trained for rapid deployment and lightning strikes, not protracted combats (hence, the name Assault...) as Devastators are. In situations where it'd be tactically moronic to go dive headfirst into the enemy with chainswords revving, such as when you're fighting a Tyranid assault, Assault Marines might be just as useful riding bikes to respond to sudden breaches in a trench system, or flying Land Speeders outfitted as Tornadoes or Typhoons to supress infantry advances.
 

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We have strayed from Red Orc's original question a bit here, but now that landspeeder Q is pretty much played out. 'nudge'
Red Orc said:
In a (codex SM) marine army, what would you consider a sensible ratio of troops to tanks (including dreads I suppose)?

It really is up to you Red Orc, some Marines Chapters use none some use loads. It all depends on your style of play.

Some transport is always handy for grabbing objectives and Whirlwinds are cheap so you won't have to take many models out and can remain Troop heavy.
Armour can attract a fair bit of fire power, so a Landraider Crusader can suck up a lot of shots that then won't be frying Your Marines.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Thanks Vash for trying to get it back to the original post, I really appreciate the effort. But I'm gonna recklessly divert the flow back towards vehicle crews.

Red Orc said:
My remembrence of the fluff is that 'vehicles are crewed by members of the reserve companies', but I don't have my codex to hand...
Realised where the info I was half remembering came from - an article by Pete Haines in a magazine called something similar to Shite Swarf:

{on troops attached to battle companies} "... a number of battle-brothers from the 6th and 7th Tactical companies operating the supporting vehicles."

OK, it only relates specifically to the Ultramarines; and it doesn't explain what 'supprting vehicles' means (speeders aren't mentioned on the accompanying organisational chart); and I have no idea how 'official' WD is considered by different people. But, as far as I recall, Pete Haines co-wrote Codex SM so it's good enough for me.

And as I don't currently have any speeders, it's a bit academic. But I will be painting my bikes up as 8th Assault Squad, to complement my 7th Assault Squad jump-pack marines.

:cyclops:
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Too_hot_to_handle said:
take none or as many as possible for maximium affect.
:D
I like your way of thinking mate! Completely goes against the grain of my SM list-building strategies, but, several million points for style.

OK, I'll take none - I do like rank and file, and tanks are expensive, especially for small games.

Thinks, will have to get something with armour and big guns for apocalypse tho'... maybe that's what the allied guard can be for (Baneblade! Baneblade!)

@ Dirge: yeah, that's what I was figuring more or less. Good, glad that's all cleared up then!

:cyclops:
 
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