It does give us an idea. If the, say, dozen or two marines we do know about only come from the tribesmen and none from anywhere else.... Even if no White Scar from any novel ever published has expressed a background besides being a nomad on Chogoris, there are countless White Scars whose backgrounds we just don't know.
Chogoris is a feral world, is it not? Even those living in cities would be tribe citizens. Just not nomadic ones.It does give us an idea. If the, say, dozen or two marines we do know about only come from the tribesmen and none from anywhere else...
It's probably more likely that they recruit heavily from the tribes and few if any from the cities.
Now I'll be the first one to say that we don't know for sure. But from the information we are given (the lack of non-nomadic White Scars mentioned and the types of people we know Space Marines like to recruit from) it does suggest that the tribesmen would be the primary recruiting pool.
Also when looking at the Index Astartes, it does mention that (at least post-Heresy), "The Stormseers of the White Scars venture down into the steppes every ten summers to obesrve the tribes and their battles, picking the best and bravest warriors and returning them to Quan Zhou to become Space Marines."
Once of their initiation trials is to travel to the pyre-tombs of dead White Scars which is a "great pilgrimage for young tribal warriors".
And another section of the entry states, "However once a warrior has been chosen to join the White Scars, his tribal allegiance is replaced with loyalty to the Great Ghan and the Chapter. Warriors from different tribes are therefore mixed with one another in squads to break up individual tribal loyalties."
There seems to be a strong assumption that every single White Scar is a tribesman. There's no "If an aspirant is a tribes then..." "All tribesmen will then have to..." It just flats out states that every warrior that becomes a White Scar has tribal allegiance.
I mean, potentially, the White Scars may have drawn recruits from the cities during the Heresy, but for one reason or another they decided to stop post-Heresy--perhaps they found the recruits unsatisfactory?
While the matter isn't quite definitively settled (when are they going to release a Forgeworld book on the White Scars!?!), I would say it is more likely they recruited heavily--if not exclusively--from the tribes than not.
I don't believe so. In the Index Astartes, the people of the plains are repeatedly called tribesmen or referred to as part of a tribe.Even those living in cities would be tribe citizens. Just not nomadic ones.
Uh, what's the issue with this? Chapters usually settle down on feral, feudal, or deathworlds. Populations are small.Further, the argument is fundamentally flawed because we would have to assume that GW is actually basing their current numbers on the presumably limited recruitment possible from a largely nomadic culture. But, as we all know, they will have exactly the right number of recruits that they need to maintain some level of dramatic tension.
There's only been mention of Chogorians and Terrans from Asiatic hive clusters IIRCHas there ever been a reference to a Chogorian White Scar that wasn't originally a nomad? Even once?
From any time, 30k-40k.
There might be some. I'm open to the possibility.Would there be no non-nomadic aspirants? Possibly...I'm thinking there should be some.
We don't have much information about the Pre-heresy White Scars. Scars gave us a little bit...but really, not much to work with. Not to my knowledge.EDIT: Also, I would take IA with a grain of salt. It's even more outdated than Collected Visions
Not quite. The Space Wolves had recruiting issues, too. From Scars, "The Wolves numbers had never been among the highest, a feature exacerbated by their aggressive drive to limit recruitment to Fenris..."The Fenris example actually supports my argument. Fenris is a death world, so by definition the propagation of human life is nigh impossible. Keeping even a small army reinforced from their stock would never be a feasible option. There just wouldn't be enough survivors. But Space Wolves always have enough new recruits, somehow. So assuming the White Scars are small just because they may or may not recruit exclusively from nomads is not a particularly sound argument. They will have however many recruits they need to have.
There's probably an easy solution to this. What else limits a legion's size besides recruitment base? Geneseed and casualties. Some combination of these three factors (recruitment base, geneseed quantity, and number of lost marines) kept the any given legion the size that it was.Nostramo was a hive world, meaning it was overflowing with people. Despite that, the Night Lords are only marginally bigger than the Space Wolves, whose planet is impossible to live on.
That happens sometimes. Basically what I am driving home is that given what information we have (which isn't a ton to work with) the White Scars were probably on the smaller size. And here's my evidence...I don't even know what you're trying to argue right now
Evolution and gravity are theories in a scientific sense. To be considered a valid theory in science, it has to be tested and shown to uphold itself. This is a theory in the vulgar sense of the word. Not the same thing at all, as there are no empirical data to support it.I'm not denying that what I am saying is not definitive. It is, as you said, speculation on my part. But we don't have the answers to everything, so we have to take what evidence we have and make a best guess. You could call it a theory.
In the same way that evolution and gravity are theories.
If you have a theory of your own, I would love to see your evidence supporting it.
We could weigh your evidence against mine and see where we're at.
No one has actual information to contribute to this, as you have said. All that we have is speculation, which (as I have been saying) isn't worth a damn when Games Workshop could just decide that at the moment the White Scars are the biggest legion (or the smallest) on a whim.I suppose then do you actually have something to add to the conversation then?
You assert that I may be wrong. I make no argument that you might be right. The evidence I have is less than absolute.
But the point of the thread is to discuss the estimated size of the Dark Angels and White Scar legions. If we knrw without a doubt their numbers we could say that and move.
But we don't, so we habe to make a best guess with what information we have.
Do you have something to add to this discussion? Some actual information or insight?
I think you're in the wrong thread (possibly forum) then. If you want a question with a definitive answer, your best bet is probably the Questionable Corner up above. It's stickied.If someone asked you how many stars were in the sky, would you not consider it "contributing to the discussion" to point out that it's unfathomable? Or would you help them count what you could see? Pointing out flaws in arguments (or logical fallacies that provide the foundation for the argument) is contributing to the discussion. I might not be answering the original question, but neither is anyone else in a meaningful way, since it is unanswerable.
No. Disagreeing is fine...as long as the other side brings a well-formed counterargument. If you were to say, "Well, in book X, it states that the White Scar geneseed is particularly compatible with the Chogorian people and therefore geneseed production could be both accelerated and successfully implanted at a higher rate than other legions."If you think someone disagreeing with you is ruining a conversation, you're gonna have a tough time.