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I'm not sure that's the best indicator, since none of the novels I've read thus far (not many, I admit) have talked about a marine's life before he became an astartes, so I assume it's not that common. Even if no White Scar from any novel ever published has expressed a background besides being a nomad on Chogoris, there are countless White Scars whose backgrounds we just don't know.

Also, characterization in Black Library works is astoundingly formulaic. All but a few characters could easily be swapped out with pretty much anyone else from their chapter/legion/forge/race, et cetera and no one would know the difference. So, I would expect most backstories to resemble each other pretty closely within a group, even if that is not the only kind of person recruited.
 

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. Even if no White Scar from any novel ever published has expressed a background besides being a nomad on Chogoris, there are countless White Scars whose backgrounds we just don't know.
It does give us an idea. If the, say, dozen or two marines we do know about only come from the tribesmen and none from anywhere else...

It's probably more likely that they recruit heavily from the tribes and few if any from the cities.

Now I'll be the first one to say that we don't know for sure. But from the information we are given (the lack of non-nomadic White Scars mentioned and the types of people we know Space Marines like to recruit from) it does suggest that the tribesmen would be the primary recruiting pool.

Also when looking at the Index Astartes, it does mention that (at least post-Heresy), "The Stormseers of the White Scars venture down into the steppes every ten summers to obesrve the tribes and their battles, picking the best and bravest warriors and returning them to Quan Zhou to become Space Marines."

Once of their initiation trials is to travel to the pyre-tombs of dead White Scars which is a "great pilgrimage for young tribal warriors".

And another section of the entry states, "However once a warrior has been chosen to join the White Scars, his tribal allegiance is replaced with loyalty to the Great Ghan and the Chapter. Warriors from different tribes are therefore mixed with one another in squads to break up individual tribal loyalties."

There seems to be a strong assumption that every single White Scar is a tribesman. There's no "If an aspirant is a tribes then..." "All tribesmen will then have to..." It just flats out states that every warrior that becomes a White Scar has tribal allegiance.

I mean, potentially, the White Scars may have drawn recruits from the cities during the Heresy, but for one reason or another they decided to stop post-Heresy--perhaps they found the recruits unsatisfactory?

While the matter isn't quite definitively settled (when are they going to release a Forgeworld book on the White Scars!?!), I would say it is more likely they recruited heavily--if not exclusively--from the tribes than not.
 

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It does give us an idea. If the, say, dozen or two marines we do know about only come from the tribesmen and none from anywhere else...

It's probably more likely that they recruit heavily from the tribes and few if any from the cities.

Now I'll be the first one to say that we don't know for sure. But from the information we are given (the lack of non-nomadic White Scars mentioned and the types of people we know Space Marines like to recruit from) it does suggest that the tribesmen would be the primary recruiting pool.

Also when looking at the Index Astartes, it does mention that (at least post-Heresy), "The Stormseers of the White Scars venture down into the steppes every ten summers to obesrve the tribes and their battles, picking the best and bravest warriors and returning them to Quan Zhou to become Space Marines."

Once of their initiation trials is to travel to the pyre-tombs of dead White Scars which is a "great pilgrimage for young tribal warriors".

And another section of the entry states, "However once a warrior has been chosen to join the White Scars, his tribal allegiance is replaced with loyalty to the Great Ghan and the Chapter. Warriors from different tribes are therefore mixed with one another in squads to break up individual tribal loyalties."

There seems to be a strong assumption that every single White Scar is a tribesman. There's no "If an aspirant is a tribes then..." "All tribesmen will then have to..." It just flats out states that every warrior that becomes a White Scar has tribal allegiance.

I mean, potentially, the White Scars may have drawn recruits from the cities during the Heresy, but for one reason or another they decided to stop post-Heresy--perhaps they found the recruits unsatisfactory?

While the matter isn't quite definitively settled (when are they going to release a Forgeworld book on the White Scars!?!), I would say it is more likely they recruited heavily--if not exclusively--from the tribes than not.
Chogoris is a feral world, is it not? Even those living in cities would be tribe citizens. Just not nomadic ones.

Further, the argument is fundamentally flawed because we would have to assume that GW is actually basing their current numbers on the presumably limited recruitment possible from a largely nomadic culture. But, as we all know, they will have exactly the right number of recruits that they need to maintain some level of dramatic tension.
 

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Even those living in cities would be tribe citizens. Just not nomadic ones.
I don't believe so. In the Index Astartes, the people of the plains are repeatedly called tribesmen or referred to as part of a tribe.

The people of the cities, serving under Palatine, are considered part of the "Chogorian Empire". Also it states that that during the invasion of the Chogorian Empire by Jaghatai, "Some sources claim that millions were killed by the bloodthirsty tribesmen".

Would be a bit odd if the people of the Chogorian Empire were also considered tribesmen. It would be like saying "Some sources claim that millions were killed by the bloodthirsty humans." Makes no sense unless tribesmen somehow made them distinct from the people of the empire.

Further, the argument is fundamentally flawed because we would have to assume that GW is actually basing their current numbers on the presumably limited recruitment possible from a largely nomadic culture. But, as we all know, they will have exactly the right number of recruits that they need to maintain some level of dramatic tension.
Uh, what's the issue with this? Chapters usually settle down on feral, feudal, or deathworlds. Populations are small.

Look at Fenris. Tiny populations clinging to an icy deathworld where what little solid ground is frequently swallowed up every couple of decades and erupts else where.
 

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Has there ever been a reference to a Chogorian White Scar that wasn't originally a nomad? Even once?

From any time, 30k-40k.
There's only been mention of Chogorians and Terrans from Asiatic hive clusters IIRC

I don't think it's ever been stated that the WS only recruit from Chogorian nomads. Khan's dream was to unite Chogoris, which he did. Would there be no non-nomadic aspirants? Possibly...I'm thinking there should be some.

EDIT: Also, I would take IA with a grain of salt. It's even more outdated than Collected Visions
 

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Would there be no non-nomadic aspirants? Possibly...I'm thinking there should be some.
There might be some. I'm open to the possibility.

Them holding a majority of the Chogorian recruits? Almost definitely not.

Them even holding a significant minority (say 15%)? I'd have my doubts about that.

EDIT: Also, I would take IA with a grain of salt. It's even more outdated than Collected Visions
We don't have much information about the Pre-heresy White Scars. Scars gave us a little bit...but really, not much to work with. Not to my knowledge.

If we had a more updated source I'd be glad to use them. Until then, we work with what we're given.
 

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The Fenris example actually supports my argument. Fenris is a death world, so by definition the propagation of human life is nigh impossible. Keeping even a small army reinforced from their stock would never be a feasible option. There just wouldn't be enough survivors. But Space Wolves always have enough new recruits, somehow. So assuming the White Scars are small just because they may or may not recruit exclusively from nomads is not a particularly sound argument. They will have however many recruits they need to have.
 

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The Fenris example actually supports my argument. Fenris is a death world, so by definition the propagation of human life is nigh impossible. Keeping even a small army reinforced from their stock would never be a feasible option. There just wouldn't be enough survivors. But Space Wolves always have enough new recruits, somehow. So assuming the White Scars are small just because they may or may not recruit exclusively from nomads is not a particularly sound argument. They will have however many recruits they need to have.
Not quite. The Space Wolves had recruiting issues, too. From Scars, "The Wolves numbers had never been among the highest, a feature exacerbated by their aggressive drive to limit recruitment to Fenris..."

So one of the reasons the Wolves were among the smaller legions is because they limited themselves to Fenris.

We know that other Legions could recruit exclusively from their homeworld and maintain their numbers:

The Night Lords being one. Talos tells us in Blood Reaver, "The Legion had taken immense casualties in the Great Crusade...most of these were Terran...but all our reinforcements came from our homeworld, Nostramo."

We know from Massacre the Night Lords were a mid-sized Legion, somewhere between 90,000 to 120,000, so building a reasonably sized Legion from a single planet is feasible.

And, indeed, many hundreds of thousands of recruits were drawn from Terra before and during the early parts of the Great Crusade. Then again Terra is a hive world teeming with people...Fenris and Chogoris are not.
 

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I don't even know what you're trying to argue right now. Nostramo was a hive world, meaning it was overflowing with people. Despite that, the Night Lords are only marginally bigger than the Space Wolves, whose planet is impossible to live on. Once again, this just proves that GW is not that concerned with making sure a legion's recruitment practices could actually account for their reported numbers.
 

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Nostramo was a hive world, meaning it was overflowing with people. Despite that, the Night Lords are only marginally bigger than the Space Wolves, whose planet is impossible to live on.
There's probably an easy solution to this. What else limits a legion's size besides recruitment base? Geneseed and casualties. Some combination of these three factors (recruitment base, geneseed quantity, and number of lost marines) kept the any given legion the size that it was.

I don't even know what you're trying to argue right now
That happens sometimes. Basically what I am driving home is that given what information we have (which isn't a ton to work with) the White Scars were probably on the smaller size. And here's my evidence...

1. The White Scars legion eventually drew exclusively from a singe planet, Chogoris.

2. They drew recruits largely, if not exclusively, from the tribesmen of Chogoris. This is a relatively small recruitment base.

Now what other legion is similar? The Space Wolves. They recruit from only one planet and a relatively small population base. It is known that they suffer for these decision.

We know that recruiting from a single planet doesn't force a legion to be small since at least one other legion, the Night Lords, did so without serious detrimental effects. Terra is also noted to also have drawn up a crap ton of recruits. Given a large enough population base and sufficient geneseed, a single planet can more than produce enough to supply a legion.

Finding the primarch of a legion can and did accelerate geneseed generation. Though Leman Russ was one of the first primarchs reunited with his legion and Curze one of the last. So this is unlikely a reason why the Night Lords are much larger than the Space Wolves.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you'd like to provide evidence supporting a medium or even large sized White Scars legion I would love to hear it.
 

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It seems like you think there is evidence for your case, but it really is all conjecture. Now, I'm not saying WS is a big legion, because I think any legion will be however big GW wants it to be, so I think it's all pointless to stake a claim either way until GW comes out and says it. But all of your evidence thus far is based on assumptions like: People in cities aren't in tribes; that GW calculates how big a legion would be based on stated recruitment and known casualties; that White Scars exclusively recruit from the nomads, that the nomads are a small minority of the population. None of these are actually presented as facts by GW for us. They might be very reasonable assumptions (and I think most are), but they are still just assumptions. You could call it circumstantial evidence at best.
 

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I'm not denying that what I am saying is not definitive. It is, as you said, speculation on my part. But we don't have the answers to everything, so we have to take what evidence we have and make a best guess. You could call it a theory.

In the same way that evolution and gravity are theories.

If you have a theory of your own, I would love to see your evidence supporting it.

We could weigh your evidence against mine and see where we're at.
 

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I'm not denying that what I am saying is not definitive. It is, as you said, speculation on my part. But we don't have the answers to everything, so we have to take what evidence we have and make a best guess. You could call it a theory.

In the same way that evolution and gravity are theories.

If you have a theory of your own, I would love to see your evidence supporting it.

We could weigh your evidence against mine and see where we're at.
Evolution and gravity are theories in a scientific sense. To be considered a valid theory in science, it has to be tested and shown to uphold itself. This is a theory in the vulgar sense of the word. Not the same thing at all, as there are no empirical data to support it.

As for evidence to my theory, what do you mean? As I said, I don't have any opinion on the size of the White Scars as a legion.
 

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I suppose then do you actually have something to add to the conversation then?

You assert that I may be wrong. I make no argument that you might be right. The evidence I have is less than absolute.

But the point of the thread is to discuss the estimated size of the Dark Angels and White Scar legions. If we knrw without a doubt their numbers we could say that and move.

But we don't, so we habe to make a best guess with what information we have.

Do you have something to add to this discussion? Some actual information or insight?
 

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I suppose then do you actually have something to add to the conversation then?

You assert that I may be wrong. I make no argument that you might be right. The evidence I have is less than absolute.

But the point of the thread is to discuss the estimated size of the Dark Angels and White Scar legions. If we knrw without a doubt their numbers we could say that and move.

But we don't, so we habe to make a best guess with what information we have.

Do you have something to add to this discussion? Some actual information or insight?
No one has actual information to contribute to this, as you have said. All that we have is speculation, which (as I have been saying) isn't worth a damn when Games Workshop could just decide that at the moment the White Scars are the biggest legion (or the smallest) on a whim.

If someone asked you how many stars were in the sky, would you not consider it "contributing to the discussion" to point out that it's unfathomable? Or would you help them count what you could see? Pointing out flaws in arguments (or logical fallacies that provide the foundation for the argument) is contributing to the discussion. I might not be answering the original question, but neither is anyone else in a meaningful way, since it is unanswerable.
 

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If someone asked you how many stars were in the sky, would you not consider it "contributing to the discussion" to point out that it's unfathomable? Or would you help them count what you could see? Pointing out flaws in arguments (or logical fallacies that provide the foundation for the argument) is contributing to the discussion. I might not be answering the original question, but neither is anyone else in a meaningful way, since it is unanswerable.
I think you're in the wrong thread (possibly forum) then. If you want a question with a definitive answer, your best bet is probably the Questionable Corner up above. It's stickied.

Now if you look carefully at the title of the OP you see it reads "How large the Dark Angels and White Scars do you think?"

Bolded for your benefit.

I am fulfilling the original request of the original poster by posting what I think.

Now if you want to say "Ah, ha! What you think is not grounded in absolute truth! You're wasting your time!" That's fine. But the only people really wasting time in this thread is you (because you missed the point of the thread, which is to speculate with what information we have avaiabile to form the best-estimate we can) and unfortunately all the time of people who have to bother to reply to you (me!)

So like so many other things in the world, if you don't want to participate in an activity (for whatever reason) that's cool. Just don't ruin it for those that want to.
 

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I think the dark angels sit roughly 105k. Reasons, not over 150 k as not more than word bearers but per dark angels books that deal with caliban in heresy point out they were producing large numbers of marines.

I would place white scars 70-80. As not listed or thought of as in 5 larger legion in any novel so far, also not listed in smaller 5 legions , so somewhere in between. A low in between due to so far only havering terrans and recruiting solely from chogris. That said someone mentioned only tribesman, I being recruited, I would add that I believe the interpretation of city folk being included in tribesman is true due to the khans desires to unite the world.
Also in Damocles crusade book with korsarro I believe there is a reference of only 1 line though that states one of the white scars is from a city/mountainous area. Perhaps someone else can tell me if I'm right.
 

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If you think someone disagreeing with you is ruining a conversation, you're gonna have a tough time.
No. Disagreeing is fine...as long as the other side brings a well-formed counterargument. If you were to say, "Well, in book X, it states that the White Scar geneseed is particularly compatible with the Chogorian people and therefore geneseed production could be both accelerated and successfully implanted at a higher rate than other legions."

I would go, "Ah, yes. That is an interesting point. I shall reevaluate my conclusion based on this new information."

That's why we're here. To have a discussion. I bring my evidence, you bring yours, and we reevaluate our positions based upon the evidence presented. If one or both of us is still dissatisfied, we ask for clarification or bring up our own counterpoints. That's how discussion should mostly go.

You're not really bringing up any evidence on your part. That's why this is grinding to a halt.

I think the rest of us has accepted we don't know how big these legions are. We haven't been told, so that's why we're guessing.

And if you're not willing to accept that premise, that we are just guessing, I think I am done with this particular conversation with you. We're both wasting our time.
 
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