[Kurce]

Refer to the attached picture.

I am playing Necrons against Imperial Guard. The IG player has only played at this shop twice (this game being his second time). I will say that perhaps he won't be coming back after this game. He didn't leave very happy...

Anyway, in the WH40k rulebook it specifically states vehicles do not gain the benefit of cover from behing "inside area terrain." I do not know if this includes being BEHIND area terrain or not. If you look at the picture, my Immortals (one of which has fallen down from my opponents' previous firing phase) is firing at his Leman Russ. The Leman Russ is the dark blue tank towards the left center portion of the picture.

Now, my claim to him was that he does not get a cover save as I can fully and clearly see his tank. His argument was that the limitations imposed by the design of the area terrain make it as though it only appears that way on the table, but out on an actual "WH40k battlefield" it would actually be a thick portion of trees; thus, granting 4+ cover.

This area terrain was made by a group of people I know that play at the shop I play at, but it was back in perhaps 3rd Edition or so and it was long before I started playing WH40k. I do not know if the terrain is just poorly made. I know I talked with the guy who made it and he said the reason why he made it like how he did was because if he actually put a bunch of trees on the base, then it would obviously be impossible to move models around inside of it. He said that back in older editions, you couldn't shoot through more than like 3" of area terrain or something of that nature. So, the rules we're a little bit more clearly defined. However, the rules have changed and he said the terrain the way it is designed will hardly ever grant 4+ cover to a vehicle because the way the trees are laid out on the base.

It is obvious to understand why my opponent was frustrated at the way we treated the terrain. He is playing IG with a bunch of tanks, and none of them we're ever granted cover, while my army was full of infrantry that got lots of cover simply due to being infantry that is sitting inside or behind area terrain. It also didn't help that he thought Necrons we're the most overpowered army ever in the history of the game because of Gauss weaponry. :/

So, I have two questions for you all:

1) Looking at the picture and the way the terrain is designed, do you feel that it should always be granting 4+ cover to vehicles AND infantry even though you can perfectly see through the terrain? Or do we stand by what the WH40k book says and if half of the vehicle isn't blocked by LoS, then they don't get cover?

2) Are there any sort of rulings like this for "official" tournaments like 'Ard Boyz? I would honestly like to see if there are any judges or what-not that could take a look at a piece of area terrain like this and say how it should be treated.

I apologize if the picture is hard to see. Any response is greatly appreciated!

 

[Stella Cadente]

well since everything is done via true line of sight and area terrain has gone the way of the dodo, the russ in this example would get no cover save.........neither would the heavy weapon team, the necrons, the chimera or the dice.

your group should get some new terrain

 

[lokis222]

Rulebook? Page 62. Its pretty clear. I am not sure what else to say.

 

[lokis222]

well since everything is done via true line of sight and area terrain has gone the way of the dodo, the russ in this example would get no cover save.........neither would the heavy weapon team, the necrons, the chimera or the dice.

your group should get some new terrain

Actually, second this...

Edit: My mistake. I don't second this. Page 22 Exceptions: Firing through units of area terrain. If there is another tree there, this applies.

 

[Kurce]

well since everything is done via true line of sight and area terrain has gone the way of the dodo, the russ in this example would get no cover save.........neither would the heavy weapon team, the necrons, the chimera or the dice.

I thought the rulebook was very clear that if you fire upon any unit except for a vehicle and if LoS passes through area terrain, then the unit receives a 4+ cover save? I don't have my rulebook on me, so I will have to look it up when I get home. If so, how does the heavy weapons team NOT receive cover?

your group should get some new terrain

Do you have any good recommendations for terrain for wooded areas?

Edit: My mistake. I don't second this. Page 22 Exceptions: Firing through units of area terrain. If there is another tree there, this applies.

Can you explain this more please? I don't know if my picture is showing you guys the "whole" picture here. There is a light green base in the picture, and then there are two or three trees placed on it. We have always treated this as though it is a wooded forest area.

 

[lokis222]

Has to do with page 21:When are models in Cover?

When any part of the target model's body is obscured from the point of view of the fire, the target model is in cover.


From the picture, measuring from the tank's gun, none of your models are in cover because from head to foot, no part of the model is obscured.

However. according to page 22 Exception:Firing through units or area terrain

If a model fires through the gaps between some elements of area terrain... the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer.

So, unless there is a tree or some terrain feature to the left of the tree in your picture, Stella Cadente is 100% right. I retracted my complete agreement from his statement due to the fact that you said the picture was not complete. I did this based on the fact that there may be a terrain feature that is not visible, but that provides the requisite to give cover to infantry.

If there is no other object, tree or otherwise, to the left of the picture providing something to be shot through, then the terrain provides no cover.

 

[Kurce]

If there is no other object, tree or otherwise, to the left of the picture providing something to be shot through, then the terrain provides no cover.

There is. There is another tree off to the left of the picture. My iPhone couldn't capture the whole piece of terrain. If you look very carefully, you can see the tips of the "leaves" on the tree in the upper left portion of the picture.

Do you guys see the base of the area terrain, though? It is a little bit lighter green than the actual table. What we did was cut out some material in a asymmertric shape and then put that green grass on it and glued those trees on. And then what we just agreed upon was that the entire base was area terrain with a height that goes to the top of those trees. We intentionally did not fill the entire base up with trees because then it would be impossible to move models around inside it. However, because of the new edition, this apparently made it where infantry will always be getting cover in it but vehicles can never get cover unless we load the base down with a ton of trees; thus, making the base nearly impossible to actually move models around.

Do you guys have any suggestions for making a piece of area terrain that could represent trees/woods but still make it where models can move through them with relative ease? And what I mean by move through them is me physically picking up my models and moving through them.

 

[lokis222]

There is. There is another tree off to the left of the picture. My iPhone couldn't capture the whole piece of terrain. If you look very carefully, you can see the tips of the "leaves" on the tree in the upper left portion of the picture.

Do you guys see the base of the area terrain, though? It is a little bit lighter green than the actual table. What we did was cut out some material in a asymmertric shape and then put that green grass on it and glued those trees on. And then what we just agreed upon was that the entire base was area terrain with a height that goes to the top of those trees. We intentionally did not fill the entire base up with trees because then it would be impossible to move models around inside it. However, because of the new edition, this apparently made it where infantry will always be getting cover in it but vehicles can never get cover unless we load the base down with a ton of trees; thus, making the base nearly impossible to actually move models around.

Do you guys have any suggestions for making a piece of area terrain that could represent trees/woods but still make it where models can move through them with relative ease? And what I mean by move through them is me physically picking up my models and moving through them.

Yeah, I see the other tree and the base. So, yes, according to the rules, you get a 4+ cover save for infantry and tanks get nothing. Honestly, unless you want to spend money on the forest terrain, yours is fine. The difference between yours and the expensive plastic one is molding. The area terrain forest does not give cover to tanks either. Or at least the burned tree one we use at my club doesn't.

Basically, it is fine. it works as area terrain as defined by the rulebook.

 

[lokis222]

If you run vehicle heavy games and want cover, use buildings. I am crap at modeling, but think walls and apartment blocks. It will give the tanks some cover and make for a more tactical battle in the movement phases.

 

[Grinnsira]

"And then what we just agreed upon was that the entire base was area terrain with a height that goes to the top of those trees. We intentionally did not fill the entire base up with trees because then it would be impossible to move models around inside it."

This statment here tells me that you would not be able to see through it. It the whole base is forest then it would be filled with trees, vines and the like, but it was left open to move models through. He would get a cover save or better you would not have been able to shoot him at all because you would not have seen him through the forested ares. It can easily be solved by IDing the terrain before anything is deployed or set up. As for making better terrain to appear as forest but still move through it is to have your base like you do, the light green area. Then mount trees and bushes, ect on 40mm bases or 40mm wooden pogs so that it can be moved around to allow models to move in and out of the area. This way it can have as many or as few sets of bushes and trees to make it a light forest or a think jungle or somewhere in between.

 

[Draenus]

Well in my lgs how we play it is and this is more important with moveable trees infantry always get a 4 up cover vehicles always get a 5 up because u will never know how much is actualy covered if the trees move.This both stops arguments and speeds up gameplay.

 

[Kurce]

Oh, we have a ****ton of buildings, but my opponent wanted to do sort of a jungle scenario. We bought a ton of GW buildings for WH40k, a lot of them look like ruins and what-not. However, the rulebook says ruins that are placed on bases (our bases are just made out of wood) should be treated as area terrain (and thus, difficult terrain). However, we stopped doing that. The reason why is because when we would do a city scenario, it would take a unit of troops like 4 turns just to walk through one little piece of ruins. So, we just put it on bases just for ease of use but we walk through it as thought it as though it is just like the regular playing field. Not to mention, vehicles will have to make a dangerous terrain test everytime they want to move and will have a chance of becoming immobilized. I'll take some more pictures and post them later just to give you an idea of what I am talking about.

Back to the area terrain though, if we are wanting to play some battlefields that provide vehicles with more cover saves, then we will have to just build more terrain? Area terrain doesn't really do much for vehicles unless it is loaded down with trees and what-not, but in that case, it is pretty much impossible to move models around in them.

I just feel really bad about it because my opponent has been playing with this group for quite some time and decided to start coming down to the shop I play at just to get some more games in because he loves playing so much. But, he was really upset when I told him that we play the game literally "by the book" as much as possible, and if the book says vehicles don't get cover from intervening area terrain, then they don't get it. I think he was just really upset because I could just glance all of his stuff and prevent him from shooting because of the Gauss weaponry. Man... that dude was so angry. -_- I felt like an asshole afterwards to be honest, so I just sort of wanted a "neutral" opinion from someone else on how this should work so I decided to get on here and ask. Our group never really knows if we are actually playing the game correctly or not because there appears to be a TON of gray area in this game. Which is something I really hate about this game, by the way...

EDIT:

This statment here tells me that you would not be able to see through it. It the whole base is forest then it would be filled with trees, vines and the like, but it was left open to move models through. He would get a cover save or better you would not have been able to shoot him at all because you would not have seen him through the forested ares. It can easily be solved by IDing the terrain before anything is deployed or set up. As for making better terrain to appear as forest but still move through it is to have your base like you do, the light green area. Then mount trees and bushes, ect on 40mm bases or 40mm wooden pogs so that it can be moved around to allow models to move in and out of the area. This way it can have as many or as few sets of bushes and trees to make it a light forest or a think jungle or somewhere in between.

We discussed it beforehand. He said, "Oh that is how you guys play it down here? Okay, that is fine." Then, after about halfway through the game, he started complaining and saying, "Yeah, that rule clearly benefits one of us more than the other." It made me feel really bad! It wasn't like I was trying to cheat him or anything.

And you are right about changing the terrain where you put trees on it and you can move the trees around on it so the models can move easier. I have seen those on YouTube where I have watched some videos of people playing Warhammer Fantasy and they will move the terrain around but still have the base.

However, my question is this: You say that if the terrain is to be interpreted as being "a mass of trees, vines, and bushes", then yeah it should grant 4+ cover to the vehicle. Hell, you even go on to say that perhaps I shouldn't even be able to see the vehicle at all! But, how would "official" tournaments rule something like this? It is my aspiration to eventually go to some big tournaments (like 'Ard Boyz for example), so I would like to know how this sort of thing SHOULD work.

Also, I have a little bit of a complaint about this, though. The problem I have is that giving everything this 4+ cover makes armor completely irrelevant. You either get a 3+ armor save or a 4+ cover save all the time. It just makes it where some armies that comes in droves of guys but has bad armor saves (Orkz and Dark Eldar come to mind) get to basically ignore their armor saves because they will always get cover from things that, I feel, they should not be getting cover from. Just my .02 cents.

 

[Grinnsira]

I understand what you are saying. When we play at my local game store sometimes all we have for terrain is 3 or 4 little trees. We form a triangle or square out of them and then agree on what ever it is. I think the cover save is a little overboard in this last set. My commit was based off of how you discribed it. But terrain works both ways. If he agreed to it at the start of the game then thats it. No changing mid game.

 

[Raptor_00]

It all really depends on how your classifying the terrain. If your calling it a mass of vines and trees you may classify it as impassable terrain. If you want to move models through, then it may become dangerous terrain.
If you classify it as impassable you could probably treat it more as a wall, no one can see anyone.

The RAI (by me at least) seems that if only a few trees are located in a field troops can hide and duck behind these trees. Your troops are basically using that one big tree in the picture to hide behind. The area would include undergrowth that would stop the tank from passing through (maybe difficult terrain) and grant the Necrons their cover.
If you had the recourses to build the terrain as imagined how many trees would you place on it? If you would totally cover it with removable trees so you could place troops and remove trees as they walk through then the tank would get a cover save because you'd have soooo many trees the tank would be blocked from view.

RAW, you're right...never said GW made fair rules though.

However, as you discussed this before hand, he should have realized that his tanks were going to get blasted and worked around it. Or, discussed an alternate description for the terrian.

As the model is built, and the rules utilized for it, it has a huge advantage for a troop based army and huge disadvantage to a mech army.

I'd either toss more trees on it or reclassify the terrain as more sparse. As the terrain looks to me, I'd wanna drive my tanks right through it and take a dangerous terrain test and blast the Necrons at point blank range.

As a side note, maybe make some trees out of cereal boxes with an X for the base so the can stand alone but are easy to remove. Whenever you need to check line of site, you have the trees placed, when you need to move through, you remove the trees needed. This would be fair to both sides.

Just my opinion but when I look into a dense wooded area at a vehicle, that vehicle can be damn hard to hit depending on how thick the trees really are.

 

[Kurce]

I think we are going to redo our "local" rules and say that those tree areas will always grant cover to both vehicles and infantry, so long as 50% of the infantry is partially or fully inside the area terrain and if 50% of the vehicle is inside terrain or if LoS to the 50% or more of the vehicle passes through the terrain.

I'd either toss more trees on it or reclassify the terrain as more sparse. As the terrain looks to me, I'd wanna drive my tanks right through it and take a dangerous terrain test and blast the Necrons at point blank range.

Just as a side question, do you play it where if you are inside the SAME piece of area terrain as your target and you are within 2" of the target you are firing at then they do not receive a cover save? I was just sort of curious.

 

[Grinnsira]

Interesting question. I know you have to be 2" max to see/shoot out of terrain. As I think about it I would say yes they get a save. It is like a close quarter fire fight. Everyone is pressed up against trees, sticking weapons around the truck and squeezing off rounds. That is my thoughts on it anyway

 

[SeerKarandras]

The way we play at the shop I play at if you are all in the same area terrain you do not get cover saves.

This is an interesting discussion. sounds as if the old terrain is to blame. I agree you guys need to upgrade the terrain.

 

[Kurce]

The way we play at the shop I play at if you are all in the same area terrain you do not get cover saves.

This is an interesting discussion. sounds as if the old terrain is to blame. I agree you guys need to upgrade the terrain.

We are going to upgrade it. I am giong to order a bunch of terrain off GW's website. Do you guys have any other good suggestions? We also need to order about 4 or 5 boxes of those craters off the GW site so we can have something for when vehicles explode. Plus, who doesn't like a battlefield that looks like it has been bombarded with heavy artillery?

 

[Pssyche]

While we're discussing terrain cover saves, how would you play the following?

One unit is shooting at a second unit that is within range. Neither unit is within area terrain, just like the situation portrayed in the rules at the bottom of page 22.
But this time there are TWO pieces of wooded area terrain in between. Individually each piece of terrain would confer a 4+ cover save to a model as per the example.
Now to the point...
Would the Cover Save change? i.e. Would you give Model B a 3+ or even 2+, depending on how large the terrain pieces are?
In my opinion, the Cover Save represents both a) the intervening Terrain physically stopping the shots AND b) the intervening Terrain obscuring sight from one unit to the other. Now I'm not claiming a complete block of LOS, which would probably be the case in real life, but surely the second piece of terrain must have some effect. I would be looking for at least a 3+ save in this instance.

Thanks in advance for your considerations and help.

 

[DeathKlokk]

Just as a side question, do you play it where if you are inside the SAME piece of area terrain as your target and you are within 2" of the target you are firing at then they do not receive a cover save? I was just sort of curious.

Models inside area terrain always get a cover save, regardless of the distance inside they are or the distance between units in the same terrain. BRB pg 22 The 2" comes into play when you are firing from area terrain and granting a cover save to your target.

Interesting question. I know you have to be 2" max to see/shoot out of terrain.

No, you must be less than 2" into the terrain to not grant your targets a cover save. You can see through area terrain any distance at all.

While we're discussing terrain cover saves, how would you play the following?

One unit is shooting at a second unit that is within range. Neither unit is within area terrain, just like the situation portrayed in the rules at the bottom of page 22.
But this time there are TWO pieces of wooded area terrain in between. Individually each piece of terrain would confer a 4+ cover save to a model as per the example.
Now to the point...
Would the Cover Save change? i.e. Would you give Model B a 3+ or even 2+, depending on how large the terrain pieces are?
In my opinion, the Cover Save represents both a) the intervening Terrain physically stopping the shots AND b) the intervening Terrain obscuring sight from one unit to the other. Now I'm not claiming a complete block of LOS, which would probably be the case in real life, but surely the second piece of terrain must have some effect. I would be looking for at least a 3+ save in this instance.

Thanks in advance for your considerations and help.

BRB pg 24 deals with models with more than one cover save. You just take the best one, no stacking.