[cccp]

What do you think? i personally think theyre reasonably balanced, and distinguishable from other armies. However those of the powergaming persuasion wil think that theyre a load of shit because of the combat squads and other rules?

What are your thoughts?

 

[The Wraithlord]

I think they can be quite competative, but that is not due to any experience with them. Just what I have read in the codex however leads me to believe that.

 

[jigplums]

I think they can be as i've stated elsewhere and when BA and Chaos get dealt with i think we will see the gap shorten between armies like DA and other tournie builds. Of course then Marines will become the "Power" list but at least the gap will be smaller.

Dont be disheartened by our game on sunday, alot of things went against you and you were facing a very difficult army for you to deal with. I think there were a few changes to the tactics and possibly list you could make that would probably mean you could have a much closer game.

 

[Jeridian]

First of all we need a baseline- a centrepoint.

I'd argue that Codex SM's, Mech Tau, Eldar are that centrepoint, with IW's and BA hideously high above it, and the rest of the armies somewhere below them.

The DA have become more competitive against GEq's more as a side effect than as an intention.
GW idea of creating balance, is to take what works and make it more expensive/restricted in the hope what doesn't will be used.

In other words, with power fists, heavy bolters, lascannons, plasmaguns, assault cannons more expensive or restricted- the DA must look elsewhere. To the Autocannon Predator, to Bikes, to Razorbacks.

This means they will have more anti-GEq firepower as a side effect.
The Eldar suffered the same by nerfing the starcannon, less anti-MEq so go to Shuriken Cannon, Scatter Laser, etc- which has the side effect of being better against GEq.

The downside of course is they are far worse against MEq's- the 'stuff that worked', roughly translates as 'the stuff that best killed MEq's' because like it or not, that is what you will face most often.
With all this stuff more expensive and restricted the DA suffer compared to SM's.

Since MEq's are the most common enemy, I'd argue DA are lower on the power curve than my centrepoint given above.

 

[Greyskullscrusade]

An army of termies is not something I wanna go up against.

 

[blkdymnd]

ummm, no...

Sorry Jeridian, but because now the Dark Angels have centered around plasma even more so than thier last incarnation, they are extremely effective against MEQ now

 

[LongBeard]

ummm, no...

Sorry Jeridian, but because now the Dark Angels have centered around plasma even more so than thier last incarnation, they are extremely effective against MEQ now

Exactly how do they revolve around plasma? And how do they utilise It within a competitive environment? :?
At the end of the day Codex SM, BT's, Tau and Eldar are all 'new' codex's so when comparing DA's I'm afraid to say there's a big shortfall on the competitive front, If Jervis brings the BA's, Chaos etc In line with the DA's then all will scream beard when Tau and Eldar start to dominate tournaments for the next few years.

An army of termies is not something I wanna go up against.

A codex SM termie army with 10 scouts and twin assault cannons, or a Lysander bomb Is surely more scarier though? :wink:
It's a shame Phil Kelly didn't have a hand In the codex, as It stands I think the Eldar codex has set a great standard for a balanced codex, heres hoping Chaos, Orks and the BA's follow suit.....

 

[Jeridian]

ummm, no...

Sorry Jeridian, but because now the Dark Angels have centered around plasma even more so than thier last incarnation, they are extremely effective against MEQ now

ummm, no...

Their plasmaguns are 50% more expensive than every other SM army.
They must have 10 men to get a Tactical plasma cannon rather than the usual 5 (or more 6).

So explain to me again how DA are centered around plasma?

It's what I love about Heresy Online, a lot of posturing about a subject without any real knowledge.
Let me guess, are you doing an 'uber' and not even reading the DA Codex before commenting?

 

[cccp]

havent seen uber in a while. im sure he has something delightful to say about this though.

DA are not centered around plasma any more than any other army at the moment in my opinion. even if they were i wouldnt take plasma cannons as theyre reasonably expensive and still get hot.

 

[Jeridian]

Aye, blast weapons in particular have become worse in 4th Ed- because instead of placing for the most possible hits, you must place the centre hole on a model. So a half-decent opponent just spreads his squads out.

Then as you say, there's the Gets Hot- tolerable on a plasmagun. But losing a plasma cannon to your own fire...

Then there's the fact DA must have 10xman to get a Tactical Plasma Cannon.

Or in a Dev squad either have a fragile 5xman squad or again 10xman.

DA are not centered around plasma any more than any other army at the moment in my opinion.

I'd argue the contrary to blk's statement- DA are less plasma orientated than any other SM army. They pay more and can't fit as many in.

 

[blkdymnd]

I'm editing this so that I'm not as hot headed as Jeridian (who seemed to have to correct me twice)

You want to tell me I don't do my own research, sir?

Tactial Squad- +5 points for plasma
Bike - also +5
Dreadnought - regular marines can't have one, DA's get them as a free upgrade
Devastators - -10 points

*this is from AB and not the codex so if I'm wrong let me know (in a civil way, jeridian) as I don't have the money to buy EVERY codex to memorize

So between the Dreads and the Devs, you are getting a break on plasma. So they are centered on plasma much more than they were before, which is a signature of the Dark Angels. If you don't like plasma, don't play them.

I also wrote 2 lists on AB, one DA and one SM:

Chaplain on bike with combi-plasma
5 Terminators/Deathwing
2 Dreadnoughts put plasma on the DA, MM one the other for similar weapon comparison
3 X 10 Tactical Squads basic plasma gun and cannon
5 Bikes/Ravenwing with an attack bike addition, 2 plasma and one MM on the attack bike
2 X 5 Devastators with 4 Plasma each

The space marine list came up exactly 95 points shorter in points than the DA list, but the DA list has a few more benefits in different units than the regular SM list does and the DA list fit 2 more plasma cannons on the Dreads that the SM can't have. All in all, I'd say they are equal, but the codex overall allows the DA player to have a few more Plasma Cannons on an equal basis.

NO PLAYER i have ever spoken too except those that min/max on a regular basis have complained about the combat squads, and in fact nearly all of them have breathed a sigh of relief on seeing them.

GW finally has started making armies that coordinate with their fluff and people still manage to find ways to complain. It is silly to say they aren't competitive when I've seen it from the 3 long time DA players in my area (one has a full color tattoo of the DA chapter symbol on his forearm).

Also, so this doesn't turn into the behavior of other forums, Jeridians attack on Uber was pretty uncalled for as he had nothing to do with mine and his point. That shouldn't be tolerated. I NEVER agree with Uber's viewpoints, but I don't slam him when he wasn't involved.

 

[Jeridian]

I'm editing this so that I'm not as hot headed as Jeridian (who seemed to have to correct me twice)

I apologise, it's the general attitude I've adopted on HO.

Whether it be the Sisters Tactica proclaiming to be the best Sisters player evar...which turned out to be the worst Sister list written and not even a Tactica.

Or ubers proclamation on the DA Codex without even reading it.

Or the claim that mass Guardians is an uber Eldar army, etc.

It's just the general boasting backed up by very bad game knowledge- it may have worked on the GW Forums but here people know how to play.

Again, I'm not directing a personal attack on you blk, of the example statements, yours is the least ridiculous (a compliment) and you've backed it up with a further argument (rather than try to shout louder with fingers in ears).

Anyway:

Tactial Squad- +5 points for plasma
Bike - also +5
Dreadnought - regular marines can't have one, DA's get them as a free upgrade
Devastators - -10 points

Dreadnoughts don't get it free, they are 20pts more expensive than SM Dreads. True that SM Dreads can't get plasma cannons....but with the aforementioned nerfing of blast weapons, who wants them.

Also the general increase of Dread cost is a downer.

Dev's again may get them cheaper- but your stuck in either a 5 man squad or a 10 man. Call it min/maxing if I take 8xman with 4 plasma. But those extra 2 bolter Marines and unneeded Vet Sgt are pts a normal SM army can spend on more plasmaguns, other units.

I've not been a fan of static firepower for quite a while. Terrain and mobility neuter static units when faced by competent mobile armies.

So the only good plasma for me is mobile plasma, i.e. plasmaguns.

As for the SM/DA army list:

A Space Marine list wouldn't and couldn't take PC Dreads- they'd take double plasmagun in multiple 8xman with fist Tacticals instead in Rhino, or Infiltrate, or Drop Pod.
They could back this up with an 8xman Assault Squad with 5pt plasma pistols instead of the 10xman DA with 15pt plasma pistols...

NO PLAYER i have ever spoken too except those that min/max on a regular basis have complained about the combat squads, and in fact nearly all of them have breathed a sigh of relief on seeing them.

Well my mum says different....unsubstantiated majority claims don't win net arguments. I can't prove these people exist anymore than you can prove I didn't send out a poll to 100 gamers and found they did find Combat Squads poor.

GW finally has started making armies that coordinate with their fluff and people still manage to find ways to complain. It is silly to say they aren't competitive when I've seen it from the 3 long time DA players in my area (one has a full color tattoo of the DA chapter symbol on his forearm).

GW has decided halfway through an edition to shift the power level down several notches. I'd like the DA Codex if it was in fact the start of 5th Ed and/or the next SM Codex, with something to bring the older Codex's in line with it.
But as it stands Codex SM's is standing behind the weany DA Codex, laughing with it's mates Codex Chaos, Codex Eldar and Codex Tau at how weedy DA is.

Also, so this doesn't turn into the behavior of other forums, Jeridians attack on Uber was pretty uncalled for as he had nothing to do with mine and his point. That shouldn't be tolerated. I NEVER agree with Uber's viewpoints, but I don't slam him when he wasn't involved.

:roll:

 

[blkdymnd]

But as it stands Codex SM's is standing behind the weany DA Codex, laughing with it's mates Codex Chaos, Codex Eldar and Codex Tau at how weedy DA is.

Now codices are sentient? j/k

Most of what you gave me is what I gave you, it's your own opinion based on your experience and the facts of the codex (the numbers). We both came up with valid opinions, I believe in how we see it. You don't like static armies, which is fine, but some still use a static firing line (not me so much, I like a bit of both). So in different ways, a lot of people are finding the new codex a breath of fresh air, while some are finding it a pox on humanity. Not saying either is right or wrong, they have a right to that. But to blatantly say that "This is not competetive!" when thats not a fact is silly. People have found it competitive, and use the new list very well.

And dogging the forum really isn't neccessary either, as you're going to get good and bad behavior anywhere you go. This one has been on very good behavior and hasn't needed moderation nearly as much as others. And thats a good thing.

 

[anathema]

So between the Dreads and the Devs, you are getting a break on plasma.

Sorry mate, but you're completely ignoring Codex marines main source of plasma. It certainly ain't Dread's and devs, its tac squads. 8-man cleanse and purify dual plasma (maybe plasma pistol too), 6-8 man las/plas. Codex dreads don't really need plasma cannons when they can have las or ass cannons as well. Ass cannons will kill more marines than a plasma cannon anyway unless they're clumped.

DAngles pay more for plasma in tac squads by having to pay for 2-4 extra men and the mandatory vet sarge.

That list you put up can be done using tac squads to pack in more plasma without having to rely on plasma cannons which just aren't as good IMO.
This isn't a particular rant v. DA, I just don't agree with your analysis.

 

[Jeridian]

People have found it competitive, and use the new list very well.

Who are these people and what are these lists?

I said DA are more competitive against GEq not less.
I said DA are less competitive against MEq.

Unfortunately MEq outnumbers GEq a lot.

Hence my conclusion that DA is less competitive than SM's overall.

This is of course based on personal experience, and the views of others I know- which I can't prove. I can't prove that they are very good players who attend multiple tournaments including GT's and rank high either.

And dogging the forum really isn't neccessary either, as you're going to get good and bad behavior anywhere you go. This one has been on very good behavior and hasn't needed moderation nearly as much as others. And thats a good thing.

I think this forums great, it doesn't have the anal Mod power trip like Warseer can or B&C does. Heresy Online gives us a little more leash to put a point across without walking on egg shells and worrying if we make little Timmy cry.

I'm just of the opinion advertising for members on the GW Forum was a bad idea- those Forums where hideous and encouraged members to smack talk and boast about stuff they have little knowledge off (again not directed at you).

The infamous Sisters Tactica and the 'the DA are very competitive, your all power gamers talking bollocks.....I haven't actually read the DA Codex.....but I still know more than those that have...' being prime examples.

DAngles pay more for plasma in tac squads by having to pay for 2-4 extra men and the mandatory vet sarge.

Don't forget the Plasmagun costs more as well.

I'd argue DA are more Melta related- as it is often smarter to take Melta over Plasma. In Bike squads (you really want a Bike to overheat and die?), Tacticals, etc.

 

[jigplums]

I'm just of the opinion advertising for members on the GW Forum was a bad idea

Thats good because for heresy-online that never happened. We didn't start the forum till after the GW ones had gone kapput so no advertising there at all for us.

 

[jigplums]

My only concern about the DA army is its lack of ap2. You can pack it in obviously, but you do pay more for it. That doesn't mean that it can't be overcome by a decent combined arms approach, played well by a competant general, and looking at the list it seems to me the obvious approach and aim of the list. The list plays very differently to codex marines, so direct comparisions don't mean much. The only way to know for sure is for people to use them in a competative environment and see how they do. IMO the list has potential, but definately has some paper, sissors, stone style opposition that will give the list and uphill struggle from the off.

 

[Jeridian]

Thats good because for heresy-online that never happened. We didn't start the forum till after the GW ones had gone kapput so no advertising there at all for us.

Meh, it must have just been the general exodus of GW Forum Members when they closed, like a plague of the uneducated masses- :lol:

My only concern about the DA army is its lack of ap2. You can pack it in obviously, but you do pay more for it. That doesn't mean that it can't be overcome by a decent combined arms approach, played well by a competant general, and looking at the list it seems to me the obvious approach and aim of the list. The list plays very differently to codex marines, so direct comparisions don't mean much. The only way to know for sure is for people to use them in a competative environment and see how they do. IMO the list has potential, but definately has some paper, sissors, stone style opposition that will give the list and uphill struggle from the off.

Agreed on the AP 2. As I said before, the same happened to Eldar- their AP 2 was severely curtailed- forcing them to take the other route of mutliple shot AP 4+. Instead of burning MEq without a save, Eldar/DA must force enough saves to cause the same damage.

This has the side effect of making them better against hordes like Orks, IG, Nids, etc. than they where before.


Have to disagree about the inability to compare with Codex SM.
Even though DA and BT are stand alone Codex's now- they will always look to Codex SM as a 'parent' list, a benchmark.

First of all you have the die-hards- the people who will play DA because they love DA, the same kind of people that still play White Scars or Raven Guard...unfortunately these people are exceptionally rare.

Then you have those that like DA but will still look back to the SM Codex- to see if they can better reflect their army style whilst still using the DA colour scheme and background. This isn't just about powergaming- a lot is to do with the removal of flexibility and variety in unit and wargear choice.
These people are in the majority.

Then you have the power gamers, WAAC'ers etc.

The only way to know for sure is for people to use them in a competative environment and see how they do. IMO the list has potential, but definately has some paper, sissors, stone style opposition that will give the list and uphill struggle from the off.

I have, and they performed as I expected- you have to work your balls off to scrape a draw against MEq- (against a balanced Chaos list).
And get your ass handed to you by power lists (facing the BA army of doom- 10 DC with Chappie, 3 6xman las/plas, 3 Pred Annihilator, Fury Libby, Assault Squad).

I've yet to try them against GEq or Skimmer Armies- hopefully they'll do better.

I'd put DA at a power level on a par with IG, Cult Chaos armies. Competitive in friendly games.

Above Witch Hunters, Daemon Hunters, Orks, BT.

Below IW's, Chaos, Eldar, Tau, SM's.

This is not necessarily a bad thing- I'd like the IG and DA to be the benchmark that all future Codex's are balanced against.

But for the forseeable future the majority of armies and players will be more competitive than every new release- and I don't think GW has the commitment to watch the gamer backlash as each army is nerfed, with older armies raising in power by comparison.

If GW had released Codex SM's in this format- I'd have no 'better' Codex to compare to when writing a list.

 

[anathema]

For general interest I started a thread elsewhere about thoughts and tactics for DA. The reply and semi-batrep from Mannahnin was interesting and is the first internet account I've read of DA being used well and successfully. Jeridian will recognise the successful use of the scout'n'drop tactic I suggested elsewhere.

http://warhammer.org.uk/PhP/viewtopic.php?t=27846

My only concern about the DA army is its lack of ap2.

Same happened for Eldar as has been mentioned. They've had to adapt by forcing lots of saves. If DA are better vs. GEQ, then maybe lists of multi-shot doom can be worked out for them while maintaining a modicum of AP2 and tank hunting in there. 3

3 Autcannon preds would be a good start, as would heavy bolter attack bikes. Mobile Anti-infantry in bikes and preds, mobile AT in the form of MM speeders and melta bikes, anyone thought of just going for 10-man bolter only marines in rhinos a la Dire Avengers in Serpents? Less mobile obviously, but probably cheaper, certainly more survivable and you can pack in a plasma gun and plasma pistol for the vet. A 5-man termie squad with ass cannon and cc mix could be useful for assault after the turn of rapid firing/overwhelming attack. Anyone fancy coming up with a list like that to see what you can fit in 1500?

 

[Stella Cadente]

well I have found my DA force to be much more competitive than my previous basic marine force, combat squads definetly has great uses, especially on scouts and devvie squads,

the downgrade of characters has made them a surprise for most enemies expecting a huge wad of points, then finding it was a waste of time and now his special anti character squad is surrounded by 50 marines, all for 100pts worth of character HAHA,

the emphasis on units is brilliant and my tactical squads are much better than marine ones, Kraks for free, hell yes, pistols make them very competitive, shooting before the charge, very nice

In all I find the new codex very good and competetive, and anyone who says it ain't most likely has no experience with it, or uses it wrong