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Discussion Starter #1
Right, so there doesn't seem to be a better place to put this. I mean, perhaps Chaos Space Marines would have worked just as well, but oh well. Anyways, I have just started collecting an Emperor's Children force and (for the first time) thought that instead of just buying models and then making an ad hoc force out of them, I'd build a list and then buy the models. I'm aiming for a decent dose of fluff (so no squadrons of Phosphex Medusas or Librarians please) but I'd also like to give my 40k opponents a run for their money. So without further ado, here is my 1500 points list:

HQ

Legion Praetor + Archeotech Pistol + Paragon blade + Iron Halo + Digital-lasers + Sonic Shriekers = 180 points

Elites

Palatine Blades + 5 Power Swords + 5 Sonic Shriekers = 170 points

Legion Terminator Squad = 175 points

Troops

Legion Assault Squad + Power weapon + Artificer armour = 270 points

Legion Tactical Squad + Artificer armour = 160 points

Fast Attack

Legion Sky Hunter Squadron + 2 additional Sky Hunters = 205 points

Heavy Support

Legion Heavy Support Squad + 5 Lascannons = 235 points

Total: 1495 points

Any comments or criticisms are greatly appreciated :victory:
 

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Argh. I managed to delete my entire post.

I'll repost it when I'm not so pissed off with myself, but;

Praetor is more than 1/10th of army cost. Suggest drop to Centurion with Phoenix Spear, Boarding Shield and Sonic Shrieker for half that. Failing that, swap the Archaeotech Pistol for a Pfist or other specialist weapon so you get the extra attack in melee. Are you running "Maru Skara" for the Rite of War (HH2; Betrayal)

Palatine Blades; If you're running your Praetor with these, save points on the Sonic Shriekers, it applies to whole squad. Take a meltabomb on the Prefector for AA duties.

Terminators; suggest Reaper and Phoenix Spear.

Troops; Artificer Armour mounts up in cost. Assault Squad could do with a couple of Power Weapons instead (Axes, my choice), Sergeant with Spear. Tactical Squad, try and get more bodies in it. Consider your Terminators are holding an objective, but have 5 Bolters between them at ~28 ppm; it's cheaper to give it to Tacticals.

SkyHunters I struggle to find room for against MEQ's. The Heavy Bolters don't kill enough, and it's too expensive for minimum squads with multi-melta's.

Lascannon Squad is begging to get shot. 46ppm is nothing to sneeze at when it's only a MEQ, doubly so when it's your only AV.



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Discussion Starter #3
So, whilst you seem to be the authority o! these things Vaz, I do have some questions if you don't mind.

Praetor: I see what you're saying. I realised he's worth more than my Palatine Blades or my Tacticals. I don't like the idea of giving him a Boarding Shield as it doesn't feel very "Emperor's Children"-y. I don't have Betrayal in front if me, but don't Boarding Shields and Combat Shields do the same thing? However the downgrade to a Centurion sounds like a good plan and I like the idea of a Pheonix spear and a Sonic Shrieker.

Also, what is "Maru Skara" as I don't have Massacre (although, increasingly I'm feelin like I should invest in it).

Palatine Blades: You're right, I was going to run them with the Praetor (well, now Centurion) so I'll scrub the Sonic Shriekers and put a melta bomb on the Prefector.

Terminators: I don't have Massacre so I don't know who can take a Phoenix Spear. And since the Plasma blaster is the same points is it more or less worth while than the Reaper, as its AP 2?

Troops: My main thought with artificer armour was that most Sergeants are MEQ or lower in 40k. Since Emperor's Children HAVE to issue and accept challenges, is it not worth keeping artificer armour on the Assault Sergeant, since either 1) His opponent strikes the same time as him but can ignore his armour 2) can ignore his armour, but strikes after him and he likely ignores theirs? But I will drop it from the Tactical and use it to buy another power weapon for the assault marines.

Plus with more points, I'll add some bodies to the Tacticals.

SkyHunters I struggle to find room for against MEQ's. The Heavy Bolters don't kill enough, and it's too expensive for minimum squads with multi-melta's.

Sky Hunters: I really like thes guys, both the models and their rules. Deep Striking, Relentless, T5 Heavy Bolter seems pretty good on paper. Are they good for anything?
Another thought I had was having a Primus Medicae on a Jetbike with a Phoenix spear to run around with them.

Sunkillers: This unit is mainly fluffy, although I wouldn't have thought 5 lascannons was anything to sniff at. I can see your point about them being 46ppm. I would have thought that a 48" range and (hopefully) some cover would give them a bit more staying power? If not what would you recommend for AV?
 

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Honestly, I don't think there's anything wrong with the Boarding Shield. Of all the Legions, the Emperor's Children are a fairly Grecian flavour, and with the only legion to get access to Power Lances so far (White Scars I expect to have access, but they're likely a year or two away), they feel, in my eyes distinctly Hoplite, if not Spartan, due to their search for perfection being somewhat related to the Spartan ideal and the Agoge.

The Centurion needs the Boarding Shield for an invulnerable save; it grants you Defensive Grenades as well, which works wonders for keeping him alive, but if you feel that it doesn't work with the Spartan theme, then a Combat Shield can work. With Phoenix Spears being Two-handed, you essentially lose nothing by taking a Boarding Shield, however. It provides you with defense against Overwatch (Shrouded against shooters) which applies to your entire unit, and while it's not clear, you can effectively remove the +1 to attacks for enemy charging, again keeping your costly Palatines alive. This is more a little sacrifice of flavour for potential.

The Praetor is usually taken in larger games to provide bonuses to the army in the form of Rites of War. The Maru Skara is the Emperor's Children unique one from HH2; Massacre. In low points games, I tend to find him too expensive unless making full use of him. The Maru Skara is +1" to your Run moves first turn (shit), and the ability to make 1-3 total units, selected from Fast Attack/Elite outflank (in addition to the normal limit enforced), but arrive on the turn you want them to (before battle, choose a number 2-4, write it down, when that turn comes, show your opponent, units automatically arrive from reserve and can outflank. These units include your attached IC's and DT's. It's a weak one; it's not explicitly clear whether "arriving from reserve normally" is regarding the need to roll or not, but I think RAI you do not need to. Of course, if you're running a Centurion this is not an option, but the Rites of War don't really affect the EC's that much anyway, especially as this one requires taking a further points tax now I've double checked it, and gives your opponent free VP's if their Warlord stays alive during the VP condition, so I'd say ignore it.

In regards to the Phoenix spear, it's available to any CHARACTER (it doesn't have to be IC either, just character), with the option of a PFist, for the same cost. So, if a model is listed as being a character, and it can take a Pfist, it can take a Phoenix Spear instead for the same cost. Note that the other terminators cannot get them, though. As an aside, when I saw that rule, I wanted to have a command squad "hoplite/phalanx" formation, equipped with Combat Shields and Phoenix Spears (as all of those are Characters), lead by a Praetor with Phoenix Spear, Boarding Shield, Thunder Hammer for modelling purposes, counting the Spear as both Hammer and Spear), Master Crafting, and Digital Lasers. Overcosted, and a fire magnet, but would beautiful as anything, in my eyes. A Primus Medicae, and Forge Lord supporting the squad provides FNP to keep them alive, and Rad Grenades to make it weaker, and a Graviton Gun to make the enemy Initiative 1.

However, I think that unit came in at nearly 700pts, so wasn't really feasable, but would look damn awesome.

In regards to the Terminators with Plasma Blaster; up to you. The range on the Reaper means you can have a try at popping transports; the Plasma Blaster's not only gets hot (a rare occasion, honestly, where you'll fail it, though, but it's annoying when it does happen).

Artificer armour is up to your meta. A couple of people I play with recognise that AP2 is king; and focus on getting that; Axes/Fists galore. While you strike first (and where Phoenix Spears become a winner, is that they're squad level at initiative Ap2, a rarity these days), you're already above them. If your local players tend to use Spears/Swords then obviously your Artificer Armour will do better. It's about how you play your squads. If you're expecting your opponent to target your MEQ troops with AP3, however, and to send his AP2 to target terminators, then by all means take Artificer Armour. The best bit about this upgrade is that it's modelling friendly; no need to actually change it.

For the SkyHunters, it's one of those -onpaper- things. Most games I play are against HH lists; the few people I play with have actually got HH armies which is where I'm coming from. Deep Striking is a waste of their JSJ for a turn, which is why you take them over attack bikes, but attack bikes are more resilient, AND can take Autocannons (5 Man Skyhunters = 205, 5 Man Attack bikes with Autocannon = 225). They're lovely models, but I just feel that if you're wanting to get Dakka, then there's cheaper or more effective ways of getting it (3 Predators for example fire 12 S7 AP4 Shots for 225pts, and provide a AV13 for your squishy infantry, while 10 Heavy Bolters is 235pts from Heavy Support Squads - although lacks relentless).

The Sunkillers, I remember these from Collected Visions; awesome they were, always wanted to see them in action. The problem is there cost. I just wish there was some way of actually making them work like so, without getting hit by a Medusa shell first turn. A 10 Man Squad works out at 435 pts; which doesn't really reduce the PPM all that much (from 46 to 43), so the usual adage of bigger is better doesn't really apply, so I think you're free (if you could find the points) to go for two squads of them. However, at this level, I think that means choosing between Camp-nators, or another squad.

As it stands, you only really have 1 unit capable of dealing with Armour; and they're no more resilient than the basic Tac Squads, and cannot hold objectives. If your opponent has armour, then he's going to need that unit gone ASAP; and it doesn't even require massive expenditure of Ordnance; sure a Medusa works, but a Tactical Squad running up a flank can down a couple, chipping off 46 points a turn; each one of those is 3% of your army allowance; which for something that's falling to Bolter fire, isn't really practicable, sadly (in my eyes).

While TLLas is not available for Predators yet (M36 is a long, long way off), Magna Melta Predators are 120/pop, and do require significant investment to kill it; if your opponent has a Land Raider, two of these can effectively "no-go" it - unless of course it has Ceramite Plating etc. I find that the best AT in the game is the Caestus; It's an AV13 Flyer, with 4 hull points and a 5+ Invulnerable against hits from the front armour, with a Magna Melta, or an almost guaranteed S10 Ram (with 2D6 and choose the highest, with +1 to the damage chart). It's unlikely to crash, but Cataphractii Terms have a reasonable survival rate inside should that happen, and can late game objective grab (in which case, just taking them as ies is cheap as chips).



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Discussion Starter #5
Alright, so based on your criticisms, here's a similar list that I have thought of

HQ

Legion Centurion + Phoenix Spear + Artificer Armour + Boarding Shield + Sonic Shrieker = 95 points

Elites

Palatine Blades + 5 Power Swords = 160 points

Legion Terminator Squad + Reaper Autocannon + Phoenix Spear = 195 points

Apothecarion Detachment (2 Apothecaries) + 2 Augury Scanners = 100 points

Troops

Legion Assault Squad + Phoenix Spear + Power Weapon + Melta-bomb = 270 points

Legion Tactical Squad + 10 additional Legion Space Marines = 250 points

Heavy Support

Legion Heavy Support Squad + 5 Lascannons = 235 points

Legion Heavy Support Squad + 5 Volkite Culverins = 185 points

Total: 1500 points

So, I had some how missed that the Boarding Shield gave defensive grenades. With that in mind, I basically made the Centurion you suggested but with artificer armour as I don't want some guy with a power sword stabbing him. Phoenix spears definitely seem like a must, so they've appeared a lot more in the list.

Since the Palatine Blades are running with the Centurion, I got rid of their Sonic Shriekers. I didn't put a Melta-bomb on the Prefector. I instead put it on the Assault Squad Sergeant working on the theory that they will be more maneuverable and more likely to get to grips with enemy armour than the Palatines.

The terminators are largely unchanged, but I added a Reaper, since they will likely be camping at the back or generally being more of a rear-guard than out in front.

The Apothecaries will either go with the Heavy Support squads or the Sunkillers and the Tactical squad. My thought was (if they're with the Heavy Supports) then that gives them a 'sort-of' invulnerable save. Granted it doesn't help against things like Medusa's, but my meta is usually either high strength or low AP shooting. Not generally both. Plus, I'm hoping that between 3+ armour, Feel No Pain and cover they can be survivable enough to earn their points worth.

Assault squad is only changed in that the sergeant now has a Melta-bomb and a Phoenix Spear and the squad has an extra Power Weapon. Although, reading through Betrayal the options say "For every five models in the squad one Legion Assault Space Marine may modify their weapons in on of the following ways:..." and then later it talks about the sergeant's options. That leads me to assume that you can have 3/5 power weapons in a 10/20 man squad respectively. Is that right?

Tactical squad doubled in size and the Artificer armour has been dropped.

Sky Hunters are gone and in their place is a 5 man Heavy Support squad with Culverins. They are cheaper, have more shots, higher strength and the possibility to cause additional wounds due to Deflagrate. Their AP is higher, but oh well. Running through the calculations they can glance to death an AV11 tank with 4 hull points (not that I know of any, but I'm sure you get the idea) every turn and strip 2.2222... hull points off an AV12 tank, which hopefully something else can deal with the remaining 1. This should free up the Sunkillers to focus on the really heavy armour. Alternatively, laying 20 shots into one unit is nothing bad. Plus, with the Augury Scanners from the Apothecaries, they can stop infiltrating blobs and cover most of my back board with Interceptor fire if anything drops down/pops up.

On some totally unrelated notes, I have wanted a Caestus Assault Ram ever since Forge World first released them. Although, one of the projects I will probably work on when I get a significant amount of money is a Storm Eagle (which I will then convert to look like Firebird), Fulgrim and a unit of 10 Phoenix Guard (which I have heard good things about). I think that will set me back ~£250 and ~1200 points. Everything will probably shoot at them, but they will look so damn cool :laugh:
 
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