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Discussion Starter #1
Hello everyone.

Just wanted to let you all know that a lot of your information and feedback has been invaluable for my 40k armies and game strategies. Anyway I am now getting into Fantasy as well and took a Chaos army as my force.

As I said I’m quite new to this game and still don’t know all of the quirks and fine details of Fantasy yet so bear with me if my roster makes an error. I would simply like to know what people think of this roster and/or if they have any tips for improving it.

Here is as it stands thus far:

1 - Chaos lord w/ Mark of Tzeentch + staff of change + Disc of Tzeentch + gaze of the gods

1 - Exalted champion w/ mark of Tzee + blade of blood + talisman of protection + chaos Steed

1 – Aspiring champion’s w/ mark Tzee + Skull of katam

1 – Aspiring champion’s w/ mark Tzee + Power familiar

5 - Chaos Knights w/ mark Tzee + SB + musician + Champion

12 – chaos warriors w/ mark Tzee + Chosen + SB + musician + Shield (2+ save) + magic standard yellow fire + champion

12 – chaos warriors w/ mark Tzee + shield + SB

12 – chaos warriors w/ mark Tzee + shield + SB

24 – Marauders with SB + light armor + shield

5 - Screamers

total pts: 2499
 

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Please keep in mind that I'm not a 'veteran' WHFB gamer, but this is what I notice...

I'm thinking that the blocks are gonna get into each others' way. You have very little speed in the army, and virtually no shooting. While I like the idea of the list quite a bit (its almost the same as mine when I first started Chaos), you'll need to figure out how to be competitive through list design in fantasy.

Of Movement, Magic, Shooting, and Combat, you'll need to dominate in two areas and strongly contest a third in order to compete against veteran tourney gamers.

Your list gives you dominance in Magic, and a strong Combat phase, but without higher maneuverability, you'll most likely get trounced. We'll not go into Shooting, as you have very little option there anyway, though if your Magic is great enough you'll not need it.

Chaos Knights, Marauder Horsemen, and Chariots are excellent choices, as are a few of the Daemon options (very fluffy too). Think hard about including either Furies or Screamers to help protect your troops against war machines.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks Hespithe,

I also saw that my army was very weak on the shooting side, however with the Tzeentch side of magic I figured I would make up enough of it to save my troops while they advanced.

As far as movement, the army is lumbering thats for sure. Between the two choices of calvary (knights and marauder) what are the pros and cons of each? Cheaper models to field more?

I was also thinking of switching around some of the warrior squads to include Screamers, I like the fluff and their abilities are very nice.

On a side note, with 3 out of 4 sorcerers being able to cast Indigo fire, how effective in your opinion is it? the ability to generate mass numbers of Horrors at the cost of enemy models seemed like a no briner, but as I've said I'm not versed in the battle aspect of this army yet.

thanks again! :D
 

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Cool, Hazroth.

Tzeentch magic can cover for its lack of shooting very well, provided you are not facing another magic-heavy army. I play a Khorne Doombull army and the local Tzeentchi Daemonic Legion player has fits when trying to get his magic through 9 dispel dice. Dwarfs can be just as mean to your magic phase, as can just about any army when designed to dominate magic. Luckily, the majority of gamers prefer magic defense to magic offense. This usually gives Tzeentchi armies an edge.

Knight units are uber-hard, and fast enough to start out on a flank, away from most enemy shooting, and enter the game on turn two with a hard charge into an exposed flank or even straight forward into the blades of a ranked unit. They can be expected to win in most cases, and don't require a lot of models to do the job. Knights can be upgraded for better stats, and can also take the MoT for that +1 Casting Die.

Marauder Horsemen are just the opposite. They are great when flanking a ranked unit in concert with a frontal charge from your Knights or another ranked unit. They are also quite expendable, so make great bait when enticing the enemy ranked units into failed charges. These guys are pretty cheap, and should be fielded in pretty small units. Flails are a nice upgrade, as is a musician, but I'd leave the other upgrades alone. AFAIK, these guys cannot take the MoT.

In either case, a small (and extremely cheap) unit or two of Chaos Hounds is a very good buy. They can perform much like the Marauder Horsemen in regards to the 'bait' tactic and for flank/rear charges, and if necessary can hide in your two table quarters to ensure that the enemy doesn't get any free victory points.

I really like Screamers, and in the case of a pure Tzeentchi army would definitely include them. If you are not set on Tzeentch Purity (c), then I'd rather see a unit of Furies. They are undivided, so will not really upset your singular deity, but are a bit cheaper and get the job done just as well. The Screamer models are my favorite of all the lesser Daemon models.

Indigo Fire is my favorite of the list. Sure, the spell is not likely to do much damage to most units, but consider the units likely to be fielded in each army... Clanrats & Slaves, Gobbos & Gnoblars, any (dark) Elves, etc. And, I must add in Chaos Hounds as well. This spell was used against me in a tourney a few weeks ago and it completely ruined any chance of my getting the upper hand in the game. My hounds were in front of my main combat unit, the one containing my Doombull, and proceeded to completely block the Doombull and his unit off from the real fighting until the end of the 5th turn. All the while, from turn 1 forward, my 8 hounds were slowly whittled down by 5 Horrors until I finally win after 10 (10!) combat phases with only 2 hounds left. Most weaker units tend to be considered sacrificial units and are easy to target with this spell as they tend to be placed in front of the main battle line, or on the flanks as protection against flank charges and annoying skirmishers. Imagine having 2 of these units attack each other and then end up engaged in combat before the enemy has even made its first die roll of the game. Indigo is better than direct damage spells because not only does it whittle away troops, it gives you a free unit, engages them in mêlée immediately, and royally screws with your opponents plans (and his mind) all at the same time.

Also, keep in mind that a unit or two of Horrors is not a bad idea either. Not only do you get a ranked unit with a Daemonic save, you also get the chance to cast a few more spells without needing more casting dice. This is very, very cool.

If one of my club members was not such and avid Tzeentchi player, then I would be that player myself.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Hey Hespithe,

Thanks for all the imput, I think after discussing some of this with you that I have chosen the right army for me, I think I will employ a squad of chaos knights and perhaps a squad of screamers, that should make up for my lack of movement and/or at least prevent myself from being flanked easily while my troops advance.

I'm glad to know that the Indigo fire acutally is a handy spell and not something that looks good on paper but doesn't perform to par.

thanks again for all your imput and I'll let you know how my first game goes! I'm fighting lizardmen :D
 

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I don't have my Hordes of Chaos book handy, but I have a few pointers that'll come in handy just sort of in general.

Battle Standard Bearers are worth their weight in gold. Might consider dropping the Power Familiar from the last Aspiring Champion and making him the BSB. That re-roll on failed leaderships is pretty vital, especially when you have so few units. You can't afford for anyone to get cold feet.

Units like Marauders, which are unarmored and rely more on numerical superiority than fighting skill to win combat, need to be more than 12 strong. I wouldn't take a unit less than 20-strong.

Units that are "elite" in the sense of their abilities tend to cost enough that they, on the other hand, cannot rely on rank bonus to win combat, but rather have to do it through sheer wounds. At bare minimum, take a Champion in your Warrior units, and a musician is always good to have around-- across the board, I wouldn't leave home without a hornblower or drummer.

Furies are indespensible to Chaos armies. They're relatively inexpensive for what you get, and you're going to need something to QUICKLY go deal with war machines. Your Warriors can't afford to take a lot of shooting losses, and a unit that can shut down the heavy shooting, albeit a sacrificial one, is advisable. Warhounds may be quick, but they don't fly. Warhounds are great to babysit your flanks, though, and are cheap enough that sticking five on either flank of the army isn't a bad call.

Extra Hand Weapon + Shield means you have a choice of either fighting with the extra hand weapon OR a hand weapon and shield-- you don't get your shield bonus at all if you choose to use the extra hand weapon. Points are at a premium in a Chaos army, particularly one so heavy on Warriors. I'd pick one or the other and not pay for the other option. In my experience, hand weapon and shield is the superior equipment loadout for units that are already heavily armoured-- as you point out, your Chosen have a 2+ armor save when fighting with a hand weapon (but not extra hand weapon) and shield. I'd only take one unit of Great Weapon-armed Warriors-- Great Weapons are nice, but Warriors are WS5 and S4 already, so why bother when hand weapons do nearly as well and don't make you hit last? That way, if you get charged, you're not more or less screwed.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Awesome idea's! I like them, it also helped me save some points and re-arrange my army so I could fit more units in!

here it is as it stands:

1 - Chaos lord w/ Mark of Tzeentch + staff of change + Disc of Tzeentch + gaze of the gods

1 - Exalted champion w/ mark of Tzee + blade of blood + talisman of protection + chaos Steed

1 – Aspiring champion’s w/ mark Tzee + Skull of katam

1 – Aspiring champion’s w/ mark Tzee + Power familiar

5 - Chaos Knights w/ mark Tzee + SB + musician + Champion

12 – chaos warriors w/ mark Tzee + Chosen + SB + musician + Shield (2+ save) + magic standard yellow fire + champion

12 – chaos warriors w/ mark Tzee + shield + SB

12 – chaos warriors w/ mark Tzee + shield + SB

24 – Marauders with SB + light armor + shield

5 - Screamers

total pts: 2499


With the addition of the Screamers and the chaos knights along with my Exaulted having a Chaos steed, I'm hoping this gives me the edge in dealing with flanking and war machines when the problem arises. Dropping those extra hand weps and other frivolous add ons has helped me a lot, I was able to field more models and improve my weak points!

thanks guys!


PS: what do ya think about the new layout?
 

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Not bad at all. Keep in mind that rank bonuses are based on 5's now, so having the multiples of four will look a bit odd (and will provide an extra partial rank for things like bolt throwers) but beyond that, it's very solid.
 

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Looks very cool to me. It may be worth it to remove 2 Warriors from each unit in order to fit in a unit of Hounds.

Have you gotten the chance to play the list yet, by proxy or otherwise?
 

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yeah i'll second the thing about ranks, remember you need 5 wide for a rank now so your units should prob be 15 strong instead of 12
 

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Discussion Starter #12
hey guys!

Well I would like to report that the hordes of chaos are victorious once again! I went today to play my friend (who is also new to the game but an avid 40k player like myself) and with our competing 2500 point armies.

I took your advice and combined the warrior squads into a 15/11/10 setup to get that extra rank, which acutally helped in my combat. As you said Hespithe, my Tzee magic was very powerful, however my friend brought on 12 dispel dice with his lizardmen. This proved to be his downfall in the end for I was acutally able to do some damage with my Screamers and keep his caster and guard squads busy for 3 rounds, which gave me ample time to advance my warriors and calvary to his warriors.

On turn 4, I turned 3 of his squads against himself, as well as poping 2 of his units with Indigo fire and creating 3 horrors from one squad and 5 horrors on a second squad of skinks. Needless to say they were more than a match for them the rest of the game.

There was a lot more to report from the game but I just wanted to let you know that all of your input has been priceless in determining my strategy and army list.

End game result = Chaos = 980 Lizardmen= 250


thanks again!
 
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