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Critique for da CriticGod
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Shrug. Then it's not terribly worth caring about. And sorry OP, it doesn't really help you.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Shrug. Then it's not terribly worth caring about. And sorry OP, it doesn't really help you.
No problem sir. I appreciate the multitude of views, but basically it comes down to the art and the novels not jiving with each other.

No biggie.
 

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Pending on the size of the hive, one of the hives from the Guant's Ghosts (Vurndunium hive or some such? Verdun WW1?) are relatively small (like NYC/Tokyo/Mexico City/London size...well, probably of those added together) were they are sort of a play on today's cities, just once again on a more massive scale.

Some of these cities had a 40k equivalent to a medieval city/castle wall as well as a huge "force field dome" that would project up and cover the city from bombardments.

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Then there are hives that the current population of earth could fit inside, with some amounts of ease pending size, and these I think are designed to be "larger than the imagination" where we cannot comprehend how VAST it actually is.

The best way for me to explain it would be to take your "downtown" or "commercial business district" or whatever it's called, and the surrounding area and multiply it by 1,000,000,000,000 (add or subtract the amount of zeros for own desire). I mean I personally view NYC as a "hive" since the idea that 9 million people living in that small of an area is not really imaginable for myself - it's a place that I see in movies, and is otherwise a dot on a map. Other people who live in highly dense places, hey look at those cities that I used as examples above, can reasonably see that better than someone who lives in a small town/city.

There could rather easily be a hive that on the "surface" or "top" is practically a green healthy looking area, because the actual "hive" is below, and if you don't look down travel there you will never know it existed; and the reverse is true.

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No problem sir. I appreciate the multitude of views, but basically it comes down to the art and the novels not jiving with each other.

No biggie.
I am not sure if it is the fact that the "art work" and "novels"/"fluff" not gelling together, or if the artist's/author's take on the situation does not meet your standards. Like what Obi-Wan told us..."So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
 

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What was retconned? I can't imagine the FW book being retconned this quickly...or by what.
Of course.

What was retconned was the information about Necromunda, dating from the second WH40K edition, not the FW books.
 

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Discussion Starter #26
I am not sure if it is the fact that the "art work" and "novels"/"fluff" not gelling together, or if the artist's/author's take on the situation does not meet your standards. Like what Obi-Wan told us..."So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."

Well, I'm only using the tools at my disposal. I read about hive cities and want to know what they look lik so I type it into google and almost without exception am presented with pics of great conical self-contained towers.

Ok cool.

I search for hive city maps and also am presented with cross sections of these conical multilayer constructs. The video game art for Armageddon 40k, the map of Helsreach in cluded in the novel....all agree...big enclosed cones.

Fine by me.

Now I'm not a fluff expert....maybe 15-16 novels under my belt, but so far none have described the above artwork. Maddeningly, the map of Helsreach included in the novel specifically contradicts what is described in the text.

I think I have run across one short story only that has followed the multileveled cone formula. Can't remember name at the moment.

In the end I don't care either way. I'm not trying to inject my standards one way or the other, but am merely trying to resolve the contradictions.

Thanks.
 

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If you're thinking about giant self-contained towers, I think the hives in Sabbat Martyr fit the bill. There's not a lot of description on them, but I think they're towering towers.

The planet it was set on, Herodor, was a relative backwater. These hive towers were surrounded by more modest, normal city blocks.
 

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Deathwing Commissar
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New York City is a city, not a hive. London is a city, not a hive. Bangkok is a city, not a hive. Mexico City is a city, not a hive. The conceptual point of a hive, where the Imperium is concerned, is that it's a fundamentally dehumanizing environment. People in the worst parts of Bangkok, for instance, are forced to deal with dire poverty and corruption. They're not forced to sustain themselves on the recycled protein that was once their neighbors, or work under conditions that are literally guaranteed to see them dead, in the name of a corpse God-Emperor. That's the point of the name "hive", after all: to evoke a dystopian existence where the value of human life is lessened.

Now, this environment could be a sealed dome that somehow encompasses an area the size of California. Alternately, it could be a series of gargantuan towers reaching so high that the planet's atmosphere can't sustain those in the highest levels. Or it could be piles of buildings built over piles of buildings built over piles of other buildings, where the bottom levels attain the status of an almost literal underworld. In truth, it could be any other sort of layout - it's really up to the author. The only real requirement, again, is that the hive is a horrid place to live for the vast majority of the teeming, oppressed masses.
 

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I disagree that a hive's...hive-iness is dependent on some sort of prerequisite level of misery.

Helsreach was a reasonable place to live, so it seemed, on the whole.

The lives of the people in Vervunhive seemed happy. Maybe not the richest...but certainly living in comfort beyond what almost everyone a couple of centuries could not imagine.

Herodor seemed a bit of a backwater (which is was)...but doesn't seem to be that brutally oppressive.

Unless you have some source that says otherwise?
 

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Heresy Online's Pet Furby
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The lives of the people in Vervunhive seemed happy. Maybe not the richest...but certainly living in comfort beyond what almost everyone a couple of centuries could not imagine.
I think Gol and some of the other miners would like a word with you..... :p
 

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Heresy Online's Pet Furby
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They probably had a consistent source of wood, potable water, and a solid roof over their heads.

That's a win in my book :p.
That would probably be luxury for the worker class of a hive :)
 

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Deathwing Commissar
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hailene,

My apologies for not answering you earlier; it's been a hell of a week!

I disagree that a hive's...hive-iness is dependent on some sort of prerequisite level of misery.
On the one hand, I would argue that one doesn't need to qualify that the conditions that define a hive city are inimical to a decent life for any but the top strata of society.

But anyways, Games Workshop has done just that. From the latest Core Rulebook:

The massive populations of hive worlds periodically become unmanageable, as the masses boil over against their constant repression. Such bustling mega-cities are always rife with anarchic and destructive forces that ensure only the hardiest can survive. Yet this too works for the Imperium, for their tithes supply rich sources of fighting men for the Imperial Guard.
The only other reference in the last two rulebooks to make a specific statement about the hives (beyond just their size and scale) is similarly negative:

Examples of recovered STC template technology still being built and in use today include
... the Atmospheric Pumps that still keep the air (almost) breathable in even the largest hive-blocks.
Going back to the fifth edition? It's similarly dreary:

Centuries of industrial production have left a hive world's surface inhospitable, with toxic fumes and parched soil. Each hive world is home to many hundred billion citizens, crammed into towering urban conglomerations, known as hives, ...
Where your specific examples are concerned?

Helsreach was a reasonable place to live, so it seemed, on the whole.
I'm not sure why you think that a hive named after a mythological hell in a world that's practically unlivable, where existence is defined by quotas for war materiel production or serving as a soldier, would be a "reasonable place to live, on the whole." :wink:

Beyond those qualifiers, which can be found in a plethora of Games Workshop products, you have some helpful contributions from the novel Helsreach:

“The air still tasted like a latrine, though. And it didn’t exactly smell any better. The joys of high sulphur content in the atmosphere.”

Excerpt From: Aaron Dembski-Bowden. “Helsreach.” iBooks.
And beyond that? Well, neither Necropolis nor Sabbat Martyr focus on the quality of life within Vervunhive or Beati City. If people don't seem ruthlessly oppressed or miserable, well, I'd chalk it up to the fact that their immediate attention is on waging a war against horrific enemies who want to see their bodies and souls corrupted and/or destroyed.

Bottom line, I don't doubt that there is some exception to the rule out there. There may very well be a hive city with tolerant rulers, great living conditions (albeit in a giant metropolis), etc. Within the context of 40k, of course, that exception would be like Alpha Shalish: an enlightened place doomed to a horrific fate. Either way, though, it's not the standard. The standard by which hive worlds and the hives that house their population is, unfortunately, a miserable one.
 
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