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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Level 4 mage with Sigil of Asuryan, Skeinsliver
Lore of Fire
325

Level 2 mage with Silver Wand and Dispel Scroll
High Magic
165

BSB with Great Weapon and Heavy Armour and Banner of Armour Piercing
117 + Banner

30 Sea Guard with Command and Shields and War Banner
435

30 Sea Guard with Command and Shields
415

5 Dragon Princes with Command and Banner of Sorcery
250

2x Bolt Throwers
200

Great Eagle
50

So yeah, 2 big blocks of sea guard, deployed in two ranks of 15. They reform the turn before receiving charges into five ranks of 6.

The Dragon Princes are basically in there to get flank charges on anything attacking the sea guard, or failing that, to attract attention from the enemy and thereby splinter their attack. They are perfectly swappable for another special choice so long as they can have the magic banner - what are peoples thoughts on Lions/Swordmasters/Phoenix Guard?

The eagle is for the usual purposes of hunting war machines/small units of archers, maybe getting a rear charge if they ignore it.

I'm really torn on Magic Lores. I've pencilled in Lore of Fire because Flaming Sword of Rhuin works on ranged attacks, which will help in combination with the AP banner to do some damage to heavy infantry, which is elves normal weak point. Being able to inflict a S4 hit on every model in a unit is often overlooked as well in favour of "big shinies" like Dwellers or Purple Sun. With the banner of D3 power dice, I think a Level 4 should be able to attempt to cast all of his spells in one turn because the average value of fire spells is very low, combined with the attribute it makes the lore very spammable.

The level 2 is there to supplement the magic defence in case the level 4 has an accident, and curse of arrow attraction is very useful for obvious reasons. Drain Magic will come into play if my Level 4 dies and theirs is still alive - effectively neutering their bonus to cast. Having a double scroll should hopefully help in this area as well.

What do people think? I've only ever played against one High Elf player, and he has a full melee army with Teclis, so not much help with tactics there!
 

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Unfortunately in 8th edition you can't use more than one of any type of magic item on one character, so no go on two arcane items.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Does that even apply to scrolls?
 

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Yeah, they used to have an exception on them.. but not anymore. So no scroll+silver wand.

I wouldnt put the banner of sorcery on the DP, they are far too vulnerable to risk putting a banner of that much value on them. I would either put in a unit of phoenix guard or white lions to have the banner (but you would need more points to make a half decent unit) or just move it to the BSB (which is a good option).
I dont like fire as the main lore for your archmage, I would swap to life, shadow or possibly metal (I would certainly take metal, but probably on the Lv2 instead). Each have their bonuses: life boost you and gives you dweller's (which is sick), shadow can lower enemy stats and gives you okkams and pit of shades (both very powerful spells) while metal gives you a bit of everything. I would always take a mage with metal in a HE army, though I woudl prefer it to be a lv1-2. You can roll to see what you get but its really just the sig spell you want: it gives you the ability to counter those 1+ or 2+ save units that you would normally struggle with (steam tanks, enemy heavy cav etc) while if you do face hoards its still ok (and if its on your Lv2 its a back up anyway).
 

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Hello,
All your heroes are rather squidgy and need abit more protection.

Your BSB is now your new best friend and should be protected at all costs. Rerolls on Ld are a must (our troops are very fragile now with the step up rule, being only T3 with a 5sv. so expect lots of tests), sadly I would recomend dropping the magical banner and giving him the Armour of caledor and the 5+ ward.

Perhaps on your Lv2 mage with high magic put the anul crystal, stealing 1 die and adding it to your dispell pool is a better long term tool, as well as letting off drain magic, he should be all the defence you'll need.

I would also say drop some sea guard. High Elves strengths are thier elite troops I would recommend the Pheonix Guard as the blanket 4+ ward save gets you out of all kind of shtick and makes a handy mage bunker, also its not so painfull if your Arch Mage miscasts and zaps his unit.

Have fun.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Fair enough about the Dragon banner, they were intended to be a reserve unit, but I guess even one lucky round of shooting might make them rather ineffective. If I swap the Sorcery banner to the BSB then it frees up a bit of points.

What do people think of White Lion chariots? I really like the models, and 4 WS5 S5 attacks from the mounts alone seems rather cool. On the other hand I've seen a couple of people say "Nice idea, but not worth the points". Does that still hold true now that they're not insta-killed by cannons? If I was going to field them at all then it'd be as a pair.

The reason I didn't take metal is because I figured two bolt throwers (with possible curse of arrow attraction) would be enough to take out heavy cav, especially now the meta-game has radically shifted away from cavalry towards infantry spam. There are still a few chaos knights floating around, but most players seem to have dropped 1+ knights from their lists.

Shadow was one of my other serious considerations, but I was put off by the fact that apart from the reduced toughness spell, it doesn't help my shooting (which my dark elf crossbowmen love, by the way!) much. The idea is to weaken the enemy at range before taking a charge or two from seriously shot up units, at which point the perma-hatred and fighting in 5 ranks ought to give me the edge against more or less anything.

Dwellers I'm not amazingly fond of, as a lot of people near me play Chaos and Ogres, reducing it's effectiveness quite a lot. It also eats all of your dice pool if you want to cast at more than 12" range, meaning the Level 2 has nothing to do all game. The buffs I'm looking for would enhance my shooting, rather than my combat, which is the backup plan.

I find that people consistently under-rate fire. Consider that for a casting value of a mere 16 (so 3 power dice for a level 4, plus the D3 you get for hitting the same unit twice) you can inflict a number of S4 hits equal to 2D6 + number of models in the unit. By comparison, the rest of the Lores magic missiles seem rather paltry. D6 S6 hits from Uranons for a 10+? 2D6 S4 hits from Banishment on the same?

The fireball/flame cage combo kills 20 men from a 30 man unit of T3 5+ save infantry. That's more than Dwellers, and costs less, at longer ranges. It also kills 12 Chaos Warriors out of a unit of 30... again better than dwellers.

Of course it's two spells, rather than one, so it's a little less reliable than just going "6 dice Purple Sun lolpwned winzorz", and is worse against units that have magic resistance, but I've been playing 8th every week since it came out and I have yet to see anyone take a unit with Magic Res, simply because all the "good" spells ignore it, so it's not deemed to be worth the points.

On the other hand, if I lose the AP banner, then Blades of Aiben looks better than it did... and gives access to final transmutation, which is longer range than Dwellers. I suppose I'll just playtest it and see.
 

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Yes Sethis.. flame cage can be one of the most damaging spells in the game, but it requires playing against a muppet. Any sensible just keeps that unit still for a turn, so they've only taken D6 S4 hits.... its nasty because its cheap and will stop movement, not so much for the damage it does (unless you force movement on the unit- either through brekaing them in combat/panic, stupidity/frenzy or by charging them next turn).

I like shadow a lot, lowering T is great, but all the spells except steed of shadows can be really nasty. You can slow an enemy down (eg playing ogres you can reduce them to movement 3 for the first turn, taking 6" off their total move) giving you more time, reduce enemy WS/BS so you take less hits, reduce their strength (seeing S1 saurus fighting COKs was quite funny)to stop the enemy wounding you (make sure to laugh anytime someone wounds an elf on a 6+, you have a couple of decent-broken damage spells (depending on who you play) and okkam's which is simply wrong. Having a unit of RXB that are suddenly S8-9 is horrible, a shooty unit that can beat almost any unit you care to mention (especially for DE since hatred gives them a lot of hits).

I really like metal, but dont think it'll have quite the same impact as the other lores.. although I would really like to play with it (dammit, why are my HEs the only ones abe to take decent lores... I really dont like them).
 

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As has been said, DP's arent that great, even for the role you set them as.I think of the High elf Elite phoenix guard are now the best. Swordmasters still own everything, but in the old situation they would just kill the front rank and win through ACR. But now with step up even lowly clanrats and empire staties can kill them with only t3 and a 5+. Meanwhile phoenix guard, cause fear, no matter what you do to them they still will at most lose half due to the 4++. Also I6. Not a huge boost, but it is re-rolls against WoC.

If you decide not to use fire, I would recommend the seer staff, so you can choose the spells you want/need the most.
 

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I run my HE mages with fire and high, but I swap them over. There is enough redundancy in Lore of Fire that a L2 with the Silver Wand can pretty much guarantee three good missiles, which leaves your archmage to take five spells (including drain magic) from the incredibly versatile (and cheap) High Magic list. If you go with that build, I would strongly recommend swapping out one of the direct damage spells (if you roll it) for Shield of Saphery.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Yes Sethis.. flame cage can be one of the most damaging spells in the game, but it requires playing against a muppet. Any sensible just keeps that unit still for a turn, so they've only taken D6 S4 hits....
But that's why I take it. They either move and take hits, or sit still.

If they sit still, I shoot either them or a more immediately threatening unit with 60 Bowshots with some kind of bonus (whether it's to hit or wound, or AP or whatever) and possibly 2 repeater bolt throwers. Every turn they don't advance is a turn I'm pouring missile fire into them. At worst, I break up their charges so they end up advancing piecemeal. At best I almost wipe out entire units.

Thanks very much for the other suggestions people, I'll have a look and see if I can rejig it somehow. :eek:k:
 

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I think your list would do well against armies that have to advance on your line without a screen, so O&G, chaos, undead, but I think you'll struggle against armies that can shoot back at you like dwarves and empire, even slave screened skaven. LSG units are to expensive to be used as a stand back shooty unit

Chariots are still up in the air atm, some love them others hate them, their abit tougher than before as their no longer matchwood to high strength, but now theres more missile fire and larger infantry blocks so its still very vulnerable. The chariot has to be used to charge a pre engaged unit rather than a solo missile. charge a horde thats locked with the LSG with a lion chariot and you should get some pleasing results
 

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chariots are good for armies with middling-weak troops... but are almost totally useless on their own or for strong melee armies. You throw the chariot into a fight (preferably a flank) to add extra kills and combat res to a fight that your standard unit might struggle to win by itself.

In a HE list that means that they are great if you are playing with smalllish blocks of LSG/spearmen since they dont have the attacks to win fights against all enemies by themselves. If you use massive hoards of them then you are less likely to need backup but chariots can still be helpful against enemy 'deathstars' that you might otherwise struggle with...
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
So I guess if I took a pair of them, I'd use one on each flank, and they can either deal with skirmishers/fast cav or support the Sea Guard once they hit combat.

Against armies that shoot back, this is why I've taken the Sliver, and deploy in fairly large units. Hopefully against MSU handgunners (which is one of the local armies) I'll get +2 to go first, which gives me the major advantage. Each Sea Guard unit shoots at a unit of 10 handgunners and kills about 6-7. The mages shoot damaging spells at a couple more, should be able to get off fireball and flames of the phoenix even with low winds, add in arrow attraction and sword of rhuin if I get a lot of dice (remember D3 extra dice from banner, so they'll be hard pressed to match my power with their dispel). Bolt throwers shoot at threats, such as enemy war machines or heavy cav.

That first turn will swing the balance of the game in my favour, because he's lost a decent chunk of his shooty troops, and is therefore not able to match my damage output. Cannons only scare my bolt throwers and chariots, because I'm deployed in 2 ranks of 15. Hellblasters aren't in range, and there's not a huge amount anyone can do against mortars/stone throwers except counter-fire with Bolt Throwers and hope for a misfire/scatter. If I'm very lucky, I got off a 5+ Ward on one of the sea guard units.

That leaves him with two options; lose a protracted shooting war, or try to advance on me. Out comes the flame cage, the stand and shoot reactions, and the fighting in 5 ranks with ASF hatred and Sword of Rhuin active.
 

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He means +1 from skeinsliver and +1 from having a smaller army then an empire gunline (which normally has a huge number of units).
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Well I played with this list today, and I think I did well:

Level 4 mage with Sigil of Asuryan, Skeinsliver
Lore of Fire
325

Level 2 mage with Silver Wand
High Magic
145

BSB with Great Weapon and Heavy Armour and Banner of Sorcery
167

30 Sea Guard with Command and Shields
415

30 Sea Guard with Command and Shields
415

Lion Chariot
140

3x Bolt Throwers
300

1907

In a 2000pt game i was actually 100pts under the limit and didn't know it, which might have made a difference.

Two dice rolls basically settled the game, the first being my BSB failing a Look Out Sir! roll against a Skaven Warpfire thrower, which then killed him.

The second roll was a double-6 break test for my Ld 9 Seaguard + Archmage unit when they lost a combat by 1 point.

If either of those two things hadn't happened I would have been fairly set on winning, but as it stands I lost by a small margin.

Man of the match goes to my Lion Chariot, which actually demolished two whittled down skaven units with flank charges. However if the opponent had at any point aimed his Warp Lightning cannon at it then I'm fairly sure it would have been kindling. I think it might only be worth taking against people without cannons, it's just too vulnerable at 140 points.

The level 4 did exactly what he was supposed to, which is throw out Flame Cage from his unit with Fire Cloak and Sword of Rhuin active. The level 2 failed on turn 1 by rolling snake eyes for Arrow Attraction, but performed well afterwards, the 5+ ward being invaluable against his weapon teams and in combats. Each magic phase saw me with at least 10 dice due to the banner, which was nice.

Now I just need to work on tactics slightly and decide what to spend 100 points on... Any ideas? :)
 

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What about 5 swordmasters/phoenix guard/white lions with musician and standard bearer? Its a small unit yes, but it could be ignored so that he can shoot your bigger units, thus freeing them up to flank an enemy unit.

Karnax
 

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Bit of a waste of points to be honest: you are looking at ~100pt unit that can be taken out by 1 volley of arrows or a single spell (bit harder if the are PG or WL). Even if you make it into combat you wont be doing very much damage... for the same points you can probably take reavers and get a much faster moving fast cav unit instead.
 

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Now I haven't played HE at all but I think that you could do with a couple of eagles for that 100pts. You can go after opponents war machines then and if they get shot down then they have fewer units to shoot your sea guard which will be whittling them down further.
 

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Sethis-

I've wanted to comment on this thread for a couple days now, but have just been pressed for time during lunchbreaks. It's funny, because your 2000 pt list very nearly mirrors mine, the only real differences being that I take archers and spearmen (2X10 units of archers, 1X30 block of spears) instead of the Seaguard, and I use a 20-man unit of Phoenix Guard instead of your chariot and 1 of the bolt throwers (I find that 2 is plenty). A level 4 with one of the lores and a level 2 with High Magic is standard for me.

I'm really interested in the fact that your Lion Chariot did so well, because I've thought often about trying one out. The Tiranoc version has always let me down, but I think that all of those Str 5 attacks from the Lions coupled with the Str 6 from the crew would really be a big swing.

As for your magic item allowance, I would definitely recommend losing the Banner of Sorcery on your BSB and get him some addtional equipment to keep him alive (Armor of Caledor and Guardian Phoenix works well). Getting the re-roll on your failed Ld test probably would have swung the battle in your favor, and I find that my HE's lose enough close combat rounds in 8th ed that I need those re-rolls for the inevitable 8's, 9's, and higher that I typically roll in those situations. I wouldn't agree with those people above who recommended eagles, as they have simply lost too much value with the changes to marching in 8th edition- Reaver Knights are a much better choice for those types of troops, since they can shoot on the way and take out war machine crews. Finally, make sure to consider the Staff of Solidity for your mages to keep 'em alive despite miscasts.

Good luck, and nice job on the first battle!:)
 
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