[kelvingreen]

I see this term cropping up a lot in tactics discussions, but what does it mean exactly? On my understanding, it means that you can give a power fist to an upgraded character in a unit and that the upgraded character can't be targetted specifically in assaults, so in effect the fist will almost always get some hits in; but doesn't the torrent of fire/blows negate that, because it's designed to allow you to pick out these special weapons?

(Also, I couldn't find a torrent of blows discussion in the BRB assault rules. Was it in a FAQ/update?)

Cheers.

 

[cccp]

its a power fist that can't be singled out in CC. thats as far as my understanding goes im afraid as i never use fists with guard.

 

[kelvingreen]

So why can you single out a flamer in shooting, but not a power fist in close combat? I have to admit, I'm quite confused! :lol:

 

[Lord Sinkoran]

I'm quite confused! :lol:

me too :?:

 

[cccp]

So why can you single out a flamer in shooting

i wasnt aware that you could. my knowledge of the rules doesnt really extend further than the basics, and not really being a tournament player iv never had to use a rule such as that.

 

[kelvingreen]

I think I may be confusing the issue. You can't "single out" a flamer/melta/whatever in shooting as such, but the torrent of fire rule means you can force them to make a specific save.

I'm told there's a "torrent of blows" rule that does the same in close combat, but (1) I can't find that in the BRB, and (2) all this talk of "hidden power fists" implies that it's not the case.

I dunno.

 

[experiment 626]

I think I may be confusing the issue. You can't "single out" a flamer/melta/whatever in shooting as such, but the torrent of fire rule means you can force them to make a specific save.

I'm told there's a "torrent of blows" rule that does the same in close combat, but (1) I can't find that in the BRB, and (2) all this talk of "hidden power fists" implies that it's not the case.

I dunno.

IIRC, the torrent of fire/blows is mentioned under the 'take armour saves' section... (sorry, rulebook is hiding on me at the moment!)
it'll mention there that if a unit takes more wounding hits than it has models during 1 set/'I' step then torrent of fire/blows can be applyed to anyone within range...

it's a very usefull little rule for punishing those gits who servely min/max their army

cheers!

 

[kelvingreen]

Ah. Right, I knew where the torrent of fire rules were, but I couldn't find the close combat version. It turns out there isn't one, just a line saying that removing casualties is worked out in the same way as shooting.

In which case, how can you have a "hidden" power fist? Why aren't power fist-wielding models killed off immediately?

 

[LongBeard]

In which case, how can you have a "hidden" power fist? Why aren't power fist-wielding models killed off immediately?

Basically because the guy wielding the power fist Is a std Sgt and not an IC therefore 'hidden' you can never target him directly unless you play It clever with your charge and wipe him out minimising a kill zone.
E.g If you charge as shown below and say cause two power weapon wounds because there are only a single marine and the Sgt within 2" they go down with no other casualty option.

-> TM PF TM TM TM

 

[kelvingreen]

So you can't target the sergeant, but you can target someone with a special weapon? Is that an inconsistency in the rules, or am I just being thick?

 

[The Wraithlord]

The ability to single out a model in cc like that is an incentive to larger squads as well. Good luck causing enough wounds on a marine squad of 8+ guys.

 

[stompzilla]

You can only single out (RE: force a save) on a particular model i.e. a flamer, a powerfist etc if you cause as many wounds as there is models in the target unit.

So, if you charge a 5 man marine squad and cause 5 wounds in a single initiative step then you can "torent" the fist and force him to make a save.

Easy peasy. :mrgreen:

 

[kelvingreen]

So there's no such thing as a "hidden" power fist then, because you can always pick them out if you cause enough wounds? It's just causing enough wounds that's the difficult part?

 

[cccp]

a hidden fist is one which cannot be targeted under normal close combat rules.

once you get into torrent of blows and all that gribbliness, you may be able to.

 

[kelvingreen]

Right. I think faint glimmers of understanding are beginning to appear!

 

[Cadian81st]

Basically, the fist strikes always strikes last, because fists always strike last, but you allocate whatever wounds the fist bearer may have taken to another tac squad member when the rest of the squad strikes at initiative, and then, when the fist strikes, he beats the shit out of the enemy. You basically sacrifice another marine so that your fist can't be singled out in combat, and can strike w/o being wounded.

 

[kelvingreen]

I think I follow you. So what torrent of blows does is invalidate the hidden fist tactic?

 

[cccp]

i would assume so. however you will have a hard time forcing that many saves.

 

[Jeridian]

Not really, show me a unit that will consistently cause enough wounds in one Initiative step.

Say a squad of 8 Marines with a fist.

You need 8 wounds.

Take the attacker as Str 4 WS 4- you need 32 attacks.

And then he still gets a 3+ save.

 

[kelvingreen]

Right. I think I'm there. Thanks everyone. I know it's been like pulling teeth. :wink: