[TimberWolfA]

Was re-reading my BRB recently and had something come to mind as I was reading about unit types.

Evidence first...
-The Heralds of Khorne and Slaanesh both have access to a mount and a chariot, when they select their respective chariots they gain a +1 to Toughness.
-The Herald of Tzeentch also gains +1 to Toughness when it selects a Chariot.
-The Herald of Tzeentch also becomes a jetbike when it selects a Chariot.
-The Heralds of Khorne and Slaanesh do not become bikes when they select their respective Chariots.
-The BRB says that bikes of all sorts confer +1 to toughness, but not for the sake of instant death, to their rider.

Question...
Does the Herald of Tzeentch have T4 from its profile being changed by selecting the Chariot upgrade or a T3(4) from its status as a bike or a T4(5) from both?

I had always assumed that it simply had a T4 from the profile change (in the same manner that the Heralds of Khorne and Slaanesh do) and hadn't considered anything more. I'd be hesitant to declare that it has T4(5) because it has 5 wounds and EW, but purely based on the spirit of the rules and what I believe must have been an oversight, I'm now leaning in that direction. Thoughtful responses are welcome. Thanks

 

[Lord Sven Kittyclaw]

hm..this is intersting. But I dont think its written in the BRB to mean that. I think its more of- If we fucked up writing your codex, bikes give you +1 T. I dont think it would stack.

 

[DeathKlokk]

It is T4 as is stated by the statline provided.

 

[Bloodcuddler of Khorne]

I would say that because the Daemonic Gifts section offers alternative stat lines for Heralds on Chariots, it would simply be T4.

 

[Tim/Steve]

We've had this discussion before... its hard to resolve it completely but the best argument seemed to be that the herald is a jetbike and not riding a jetbike so doens't get the usual +1T that a rider would get...

 

[darklove]

We've had this discussion before... its hard to resolve it completely but the best argument seemed to be that the herald is a jetbike and not riding a jetbike so doens't get the usual +1T that a rider would get...

Except there are examples of some units that become jetbikes and do gain the T bonus, like a Necron Destroyer Lord. The Lord becomes a jetbike and gains a solid +1 T, making it T6 and not T5(6). So even while it is not riding a jetbike, it does get the toughness bonus.

 

[TimberWolfA]

We've had this discussion before... its hard to resolve it completely but the best argument seemed to be that the herald is a jetbike and not riding a jetbike so doens't get the usual +1T that a rider would get...

If this discussion has been had before, the search engine needs to be fixed. I promise that I looked before opening a new topic.

Edit: p.76 of the Chaos Daemons codex clearly states, "the Herald changes its unit type from Infantry to Jetbike." It then goes on to reference a "modified profile" that includes T4 (as with Space Wolves Thunderwolf mounts, which is specifically noted to be different from the Toughness bonus granted by bikes). Also, the book makes no implications that the Herald becomes a chariot, but rather that the Herald is gifted (from Tzeentch) a "supernatural flying chariot. Pulled by two Screamers (of Tzeentch)" that (above) modify his profile when he's riding around on said chariot.

Thus at this juncture I'm more apt to accept that an oversight was made and the 'dex didn't bother to display the Herald's Toughness as T3(4) even though this is what was intended, because all Daemons have Eternal Warrior (making there to be no difference between T3(4) and T4).

 

[b.anthracis]

We've had this discussion before... its hard to resolve it completely but the best argument seemed to be that the herald is a jetbike and not riding a jetbike so doens't get the usual +1T that a rider would get...

The discussion you are pointing to is the discussion whether screamers get a +1 T on their statline toughness or not. But I think the herald of Tzeentch discussion is new .

If you resolve both raw, than both would get an additional +1T. But this is clearly not intended.

 

[Aramoro]

No they wouldn't as neither of them are riding Jetbikes, they 'are' Jetbikes.

Aramoro

 

[Winterous]

They're T4(5).
This is RAW, that cannot be denied.

In the BRB it says "Bike RIDERS benefit from blah blah", THIS is the oversight.
It has no specific mentions, it's simply overlooking the fact that not all Bike units aren't actually RIDING bikes.

The Destroyer Lord thing is irrelevant, as it doesn't say he BECOMES a Jetbike, it says he MOVES as though he were one, and gains +1T.
So you cannot compare that to this.


The simple fact is, Screamers and Chariot-mounted Heralds of Tzeench are both T4(5), and this is the absolute truth.


*edit*
I sounded like a dick while typing this
I'm hyper-conversational right now, I'm talking in weird ways, and not making much sense at times, and saying things again in a different way.

*edit*
In this post rather than while typing.
SEE WHAT I MEAN? D:

 

[DeathKlokk]

The statline given for them would seem to disagree, Wint.

 

[Winterous]

The statline given for them would seem to disagree, Wint.

The statline doesn't take into account the extra toughness from being a bike.
If it did, it would say 3(4), even though it would only rarely make a difference since they're immune to ID.
Since it doesn't, the only logical assumption is that since it's written that way, and they haven't FAQd it, the the most obvious (the RAW except when that's absurd and complicated) is to be assumed the intention.

 

[DeathKlokk]

Unless of course you actually look at the differences in the statlines of a standard Herald and one on a chariot. The +1 T is already there. Pretty obvious.

 

[Winterous]

Unless of course you actually look at the differences in the statlines of a standard Herald and one on a chariot. The +1 T is already there. Pretty obvious.

But if you look at the piece of text above the 'with Chariot' statline, it says:

this Daemonic Steed confers +2 Attacks, +1 Toughness, +3 Wounds to the Herald and changes its unit type from Infantry to Jetbike.

You're gaining +1 Toughness, and also another +1 'extra' Toughness from being a Bike.
Hence 4(5).

 

[DeathKlokk]

No, this is hunting for easter eggs in the rules. It clearly states what bonuses you get in the text, then further reinforces it by giving a statline for it.

 

[Winterous]

It's not hunting though, it clearly states what bonuses you get, which includes +1 Toughness and also being a Jetbike.
If GW intended it to say T4 including the Jetbike, they should have said "It's not T3(4) because they're immune to ID, so it doesn't make a difference." The fact is, it does theoretically make a difference.

What if this Herald were to get Feel No Pain somehow?
What would you count his Toughness as for the purposes of double Strength negating it?
3 or 4?
You can't say it's 3, because his statline says 4, and if you say 4 then his 'fake' Toughness is 5, because he's a Jetbike.

There are far too many flaws in the argument that he's actually 3(4) for it to be valid.

 

[DeathKlokk]

You mean except for the fact that they say in two places what the toughness is? There are no parenthesis because it changes the actual statline, there IS no bonus. Which is exactly what the tell us. TWICE. lol

 

[Vaz]

Codex > Rulebook

I don't have the rules to hand, but If Jetbike says +1 Toughness except versus Instant Death in BRB, then those rules apply. However, if the rules in codex say something different, i.e the chariots new Statline, then the rule is exactly that.

Funnily enough if it states the exact following, The Herald gains +1 Toughness, and is a Jetbike, then it should be as following T4(5), not T3(5), T3(4), or T4, or whatever.

For example, Bikes are T(T+1) - and the listing for SM Bikes are T4(5), and in the wargear it says they have an SM Bike. If you don't factor in the wargear to the profile, they are now T4(6).

Thunderwolf Cavalry, again, don't have the rules to hand, but they're T5 full stop, not T4(5), why, because it states they are.

And because a Chariot states that it's T4, then, fuck me, it's T4.

 

[Winterous]

You mean except for the fact that they say in two places what the toughness is? There are no parenthesis because it changes the actual statline, there IS no bonus. Which is exactly what the tell us. TWICE. lol

So he's just flat T4?
Then what happened to his +1 bonus for being a Bike?
That isn't in a SM Captain's statline is it, if he chooses to take a Bike?
Because it doesn't NEED to be.
Just like the +1 bonus for having 2 CCW doesn't need to be in the statline.

Funnily enough if it states the exact following, The Herald gains +1 Toughness, and is a Jetbike, then it should be as following T4(5), not T3(5), T3(4), or T4, or whatever.

That is exactly what it says, yes.

For example, Bikes are T(T+1) - and the listing for SM Bikes are T4(5), and in the wargear it says they have an SM Bike. If you don't factor in the wargear to the profile, they are now T4(6).

Thunderwolf Cavalry, again, don't have the rules to hand, but they're T5 full stop, not T4(5), why, because it states they are.

And because a Chariot states that it's T4, then, fuck me, it's T4.

The (X) thing isn't actually a part of the base statline, that's why it's never there unless an article of Wargear or special rule specifically states that it's there, and that's why it's there.
Like being a Bike, or having the Mark of Nurgle (for CSM).

Thunderwolf Cavalry don't actually have a Thunderwolf Mount as a part of their Wargear, they have all the rules of it incorporated into the unit profile.
And a Thunderwolf Mount doesn't add +1 'fake' Toughness, it adds 1 Toughness, that's it.


It's quite possible that it is just a stupid oversight by GW, but RAW, they're T4(5).

 

[solkan]

If you want to argue RAW:

The codex entry states that the Herald's unit type changes from Infantry to Jetbike, and the rulebook states that the +1 Toughness is granted to bike riders:

"Bike riders benefit from the protection offered by their bike, ...". (Emphasis added.)

Compare the description of the chariot:

"... and changes [the herald's] unit type from Infantry to Jetbike." (Pronoun substitution and emphasis added.)

The RAW argument fails because the rules don't specify either a) that the chariot is a bike or a jetbike (so that the herald is a bike rider) or b) state that the herald is riding a bike. Instead, the Herald is simply a Jetbike as per the unit type designation, and follows all of the rules specified for Jetbikes.

Summary: Heralds on Chariots of Tzeentch are Jetbike models who are not riding bikes, so therefore do not get an additional +1 toughness for being Bike riders.