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Discussion Starter #1
I have a friend who likes both factions of Chaos. However, he has an overall negative view on both of the newer codices for the armies. Some of the things I can agree with (such as shooting attacks than can potentially give the enemy feel no pain). However, it seems he only focuses on the negative aspects of the codex, whilst ignoring the good parts or trying to find ways to make units work.

For instance, because Plaguebearers aren't T5 or have FNP, he write them off. However, I told him that going to ground behind cover with Shroud, it makes Plaguebearers a really good objective holder. Now if he will follow that advice, I don't know.

In short, he focuses only on the nerfs and complains that "marines have it better" whilst ignoring the balancing and the buffs to his armies.

I want to help improve his attitude so that he can enjoy the games that he plays, instead of having a down attitude while playing.

So is there anything I can do to help improve his outlook on his armies?
 

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It's tough to move to a new codex- I used to love fielding 20-odd units of Chaos Marines back in 4th(3rd?) edition and the 5th edition codex stuffed that strategy real quick- I had to actually manage my Leadership rolls after that.

I never really used daemons (despite playing purely Word Bearers for quite some time before moving to a warband of a few legions/etc), so I'm not sure how well my advice will hold. I'd recommend having a look through the wargear sections of the book, there's always new goodies in there- Lash in 5th edition completely borked the Chaos Lord with regards to pulling an enemy unit out of cover and shooting it to bits. Might be something similar he can use to alter his gameplay style a bit.
 

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It sounds like he has now placed you in a difficult position! With every release of any book there are changes that some people will like whilst others hate. I know my fair share of these sort of player too, an to over come it we just get on with gaming. If your friend is not taking on any of your advice then either against him or while he's watching explain the benefits "his" army will have or would have had in certian situations that arise during the game. It may cost you a winning game or the game may take longer but in the end if could help your friend see the difference first hand instead of just being told!

You could even ask to use his army whilst he watches you play another friend! Use the stuff he likes and pray you win lol


Good luck with convincing your friend but don't let it cost you your enjoyment.
 

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i would tell him to just play GK/Guard...because like it or not 6th ed codexs are going to be vastly different than 5th ed ones; no auto win lists, better internal balance, no OTT units (exception heldrake), and expensive.

honestly i do not play my CSM army all the often anymore, because i actually have choices i want to bring EVERYTHING, and i just cant.
 

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Borrow his army and use some of the tactics you can think of against him.
 

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Just enjoy the wins, take pleasure in thinking up new strategies that will wipe him off the board. If he cannot or will not adapt his strategies to new rules and changes then he'll be out 'evolved' by other players working to better their game. I'm not saying to rub his face in a defeat but it's poor generalship not to adapt to new circumstances and quite possibly a life lesson he needs to learn.
 

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Was he the type of player who heavily spammed previously OPed units and is now butthurt over the fact that 90% of his army got nerfed?

That always happens and is a steady constant whenever GW releases a new army. Most people say you have to "adapt" and that's true. And that adapting to the new hypercompetitive list will mean buying a fully new army.

That's pretty much GW's way of doing it for years now. I don't want to sound too rude, but maybe you should just be honoust with him and tell him to suck it up and reinvest in his new army, or invest in another one...
 

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If he cannot or will not adapt his strategies to new rules and changes then he'll be out 'evolved' by other players working to better their game. I'm not saying to rub his face in a defeat but it's poor generalship not to adapt to new circumstances and quite possibly a life lesson he needs to learn.
This.

Nothing shits me more that whiny dicks crying over a change in the rulebook or Codex.

You can either collapse in a sooky heap in the corner or you can embrace it as an opportunity to freshen up your favourite army list and give yourself excuses to by heaps of cool new stuff !
 

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This.

Nothing shits me more that whiny dicks crying over a change in the rulebook or Codex.

You can either collapse in a sooky heap in the corner or you can embrace it as an opportunity to freshen up your favourite army list and give yourself excuses to by heaps of cool new stuff !
What's a sooky heap?

Maybe your friend should wait for another few codex releases before deciding.
 

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Well, I hate to sound self-aggrandizing, but I do like to think I covered the pluses and minuses of the new Chaos 'dex pretty well in my Tactica of it. I start with a bit of a griping moan he'd probably identify with about the not-so-fun changes, then gradually build up to the neat and interesting combos available.

That the CSM book was unambitious and mostly small balance tweaks wasn't bad: sure, a Khorne Lord on a bike w/ the AoBF has replaced the Daemon Prince as the most cost-effective killy HQ, Havocs have replaced Oblits for favorite HQ slot, Bikes have replaced Zerkers as the most effective assault unit... but in the other hand, Plague Marines are still awesome and, most importantly, we were given the Heldrake.

Similarly, that Daemons have changed their play mechanic doesn't make them bad. Plaguebearers, for instance, cost 40% less per model, can still be given FNP, and can deep strike down into cover for a 3+ or 2+ cover save. Tzeentch was nerfed, sure, but it had it coming—and it still got Divination, which makes all CSM allies contingents want to get buddy-buddy. Daemonettes are insane when fielded in large, super-cheap blobs.
 

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This.

Nothing shits me more that whiny dicks crying over a change in the rulebook or Codex.

You can either collapse in a sooky heap in the corner or you can embrace it as an opportunity to freshen up your favourite army list and give yourself excuses to by heaps of cool new stuff !
Whats ****'s me off about the whole thing though is when Codex's bring out new units that are "needed" to play competitively. Why cant I just use the units I have been accumulating over the years to make an effective army?

A minor gripe, and call me narrow minded if you wish, but having to buy a ****ing helldrake or three to maximise my army really does piss me off when i've got hundreds of other models that were worthwhile in previous renditions of the rules and have now been made redundant to encourage me to spend more.

Another example... ive got 6/7 Carnifexs for my Nid Army with 5th Trygons/Mawlocs have become the bee's knees in heavy support. There's another shed load of money that needed to be forked out to make my heavy support slots valid. Now with 6th edition rules changes even my Trygons and Mawlocks have started hitting the shelf because of changes to rules involving charging after deep striking.

There is whiny bitching and then there's legitimate complaints to be had. Thats the nature of the beast though and in the end I'm still the sorry sap that goes and buys there new stuff (Ebay) to stay competitive, so why should I complain?

Thats my minor gripe aside now... Just tell your buddy to nut up or shut up. We all have to go through this! Tell him to look on the bright side. He could be playing an army that doesn't exist any more, I'm looking at you genestealer cults!
 

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What I'd rather see Igni is threads that brainstorm the problems created by the changes rather than page after page whining.
 

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Whats ****'s me off about the whole thing though is when Codex's bring out new units that are "needed" to play competitively. Why cant I just use the units I have been accumulating over the years to make an effective army?

"Effective" armies and "competitive" armies are two entirely different things. I ran an "effective" mono-slaanesh list with the old CSM codex and whenever i won it was awesome. Now i can run a more "competitive" list and i have like 100x more options than before, most not even including a heldrake.

A minor gripe, and call me narrow minded if you wish, but having to buy a ****ing helldrake or three to maximise my army really does piss me off when i've got hundreds of other models that were worthwhile in previous renditions of the rules and have now been made redundant to encourage me to spend more.

because thats what every company makes you do, look at the original play station, i doubt that you are still playing it; or that you are watching VHS tapes still.

besides you can always take bikes, or raptors, or spawn...since you know we actually HAVE optimal choices in the FA slot now, no one is pushing anyone to buy a heldrake or a flyer of any kind.

Another example... ive got 6/7 Carnifexs for my Nid Army with 5th Trygons/Mawlocs have become the bee's knees in heavy support. There's another shed load of money that needed to be forked out to make my heavy support slots valid. Now with 6th edition rules changes even my Trygons and Mawlocks have started hitting the shelf because of changes to rules involving charging after deep striking.

see above...ok Tyranids got hosed with their codex, its nowhere near as good as it should be that i can agree with you. What changes to DSing are you talking about? you couldn't assault after DSing last edition, and you still cant. or am i missing something else?
thoughts in cyan...
 

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If budgets are genuinely tight, honestly what is the problem with proxy models? Just a bit of light converting, a different paint job to what's on the box, whatever. About 10 years ago I made a flying Chimera for my IG army, it was just a bit of a fun project, I used nothing but the bits in the box. In those 10 years vehichles have dropped in and out of favour with the meta game, and more importantly perhaps they've also dropped into and out of my style of play, but here's the thing, my current list contains that flying chimera, used as a proxy valkyrie.
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
Was he the type of player who heavily spammed previously OPed units and is now butthurt over the fact that 90% of his army got nerfed?

That always happens and is a steady constant whenever GW releases a new army. Most people say you have to "adapt" and that's true. And that adapting to the new hypercompetitive list will mean buying a fully new army.

That's pretty much GW's way of doing it for years now. I don't want to sound too rude, but maybe you should just be honoust with him and tell him to suck it up and reinvest in his new army, or invest in another one...
To be brutally honest, he doesn't have too many models for either. All he has is the battleforce for both armies + a Daemon Prince and a Lord of Change. And even then, he doesn't play much as it is.

If your friend can't find the positive light at the end of the tunnel, then, maybe he needs to evaluate another faction for what to play.
As I said, he really likes the Chaos fluff and hasn't shown interest in starting any other factions. It seems to me that he takes the book at face value and doesn't even try to think of ways to make it work.

That the CSM book was unambitious and mostly small balance tweaks wasn't bad: sure, a Khorne Lord on a bike w/ the AoBF has replaced the Daemon Prince as the most cost-effective killy HQ, Havocs have replaced Oblits for favorite HQ slot, Bikes have replaced Zerkers as the most effective assault unit... but in the other hand, Plague Marines are still awesome and, most importantly, we were given the Heldrake.

Similarly, that Daemons have changed their play mechanic doesn't make them bad. Plaguebearers, for instance, cost 40% less per model, can still be given FNP, and can deep strike down into cover for a 3+ or 2+ cover save. Tzeentch was nerfed, sure, but it had it coming—and it still got Divination, which makes all CSM allies contingents want to get buddy-buddy. Daemonettes are insane when fielded in large, super-cheap blobs.
Thing is, out of all the gods, he likes Tzeentch the most and he more or less refuses to play anything Slaanesh. I do agree that some of the Tzeentch nerfs hurt, but he shouldn't discredit them in its entirety. I also don't think he's grasped the new horde concept of daemons.

If budgets are genuinely tight, honestly what is the problem with proxy models? Just a bit of light converting, a different paint job to what's on the box, whatever. About 10 years ago I made a flying Chimera for my IG army, it was just a bit of a fun project, I used nothing but the bits in the box. In those 10 years vehichles have dropped in and out of favour with the meta game, and more importantly perhaps they've also dropped into and out of my style of play, but here's the thing, my current list contains that flying chimera, used as a proxy valkyrie.
I honestly have no idea what his budget is. One week he has a large budget (which he spends on Magic the Gathering), and another week he proclaims he has nothing.
 

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I guess the point I was trying to make (rather poorly) is that there's a whole lot of different aspects to the game and the hobby, and unfortunately it can be all to easy to get sucked into just perfecting an army list. Of course that's generally the draw of tabletop gaming, but quite honestly just doing that has always struck me as a terrible bore. It's searching for that optimal combination of units, as if the codex writers have hidden it in there somewhere like the leprechaun's pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

The fact your friend is into magic the gathering like that isn't surprising, what that game seems to do is just release increasingly more powerful cards in a constant upward curve. Whilst I don't deny 40k doesn't have aspects of that, I honestly wouldn't say that GW does that as it's sole buisness model (blood angels and grey knights being possible exceptions to this [edit: and goddamned space wolves]). As an aside, I wouldn't claim flyers to be one of those, it's a genuine attempt to add another dimension to the game one that, logically speaking, has been missing for the past 25 years.

Back to your friend though. Really, it isn't your place to be persuading him one way or another. It's frustrating, I think everone on this forum knows someone who they wish would just spend a little bit more time/money/effort on their hobby. I know I do, mine spends all his money on booze and then doesn't turn up to gaming night! What you might get some success with though is to try and engage him in some other aspect of the game, modelling, fluff and background, scenery, even try a different game system, maybe one of the old ones like Necromunda. And just be greatful he doesn't play starcraft 2, those updates are like every 6 months.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I understand that I can't force him into an army play style, and I have no intention of doing so.

However, in 40k games, he acts in a way that really doesn't make the game fun. For example, in his our most recent game (a team battle, so I was on his team) he footslogged his winged daemon prince, trying to hide it behind cover in fear of the impact tests. However, it gets gunned down anyway, arguably faster since it was on the ground (and cover didn't help much due to its size).
In the same game, he ran a rhino filled with Chosen and Ahriman up into a Space Marine gunline, knowing full well that that Rhino would get destroyed and that his models would be exposed, and I reminded him of this. Yet, when both of these events occurred, he started to get all down and mopey about the game. (In retrospect, it was kinda an uphill game, as both me, him and another Necron player had to "push" into a line...no... an adamantine wall of Tau, Space Marines and Guardsmen to get the objective, with only my side breaking through)

So I guess that's another thing I could say, as soon as things start to go south, he visibly gets upset about it. Not in the whining sort of way, but his emotions plummet and he starts to get all down, which really makes it hard for the other player to have fun.

So I don't want to force him to pay money for a game he might not play down the line, yet he just bought the 40k Daemons codex, and I would hate to see him waste that $50
 
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