Help, the Tau are killing me!
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If only it were that simple. Tau are one of the tougher cookies for me to crack. Fighting Tau really depends on how their army is set up. If it's mostly mechanized, you basically get to play their cat and mouse game. The good news about chasing devilfish flying all over the board is that they're not terribly difficult to crack open. It's just bad when you get shot to pieces by their contents. Against a more mixed Tau army that doesn't rely on the overused "fish of fury" maneuver, you'll have an easier time chasing things down. Don't be shy about it either way-- if you're not almost recklessly bold about jumping them, then you're doing what they want you to do-- stay further away so they can shoot you more.
well cc is the way you'll break tau, but you need some threatening shooting to take the heat off your cc elements. Always try to concertrate your attack in one area vs tau as well, as you should then be able to limit the los they can get to you. Landspeeders are ideal as you can hide them, and then move out and shoot where they are most needed, hopefully taking out the threats to you assault units. Droppods are really good vs tau, so if you can get hold of one or two, or make your own then its worth considering. Whirlwinds are also a nice shooting unit vs tau. Tau will rarely be moving towards you, so if it gets the cover it needs then it should be fine for most of the game to dropping pie plates on warriors, kroot and if needed suits that are hiding 
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The majority of people who use drop pods around here use the red party cup variety. Not tournament-legal, but for friendly games, it's passable. You could also try the local hardware store. One of the guys in my gaming group built a drop pod for about twenty bucks from assorted doodads from the hardware store-- and it came out to actually be the right size, as opposed to the red party cup method.
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359 Posts
The reason so many people have a hard time with Tau is because they try to do to Tau what Orks have been trying to do to everyone else for ages. Tau want you at their max range so that they can shoot you, it's true, so you have two choices, you can rush toward them and attempt to close the distance while taking horrendous casulalties, OR you can sit outside of the majority of their firepower and make them come to you.
I regularly beat Tau with my Orks not because I close into CC and annihilate them, but because I out shoot them. The longest range massed fire in the Tau army is 30 inches. The longest ranged massed fire in the Ork army is 36 inches. See where I am going with this? As to Fish of Fury, it fails utterly because it relies on using Skimmers interposed between the assaulting unit and the Tau who are jumping out. To be effective the assault range of the unit being fired on needs to be 12 inches (6 move 6 assault). So, make certain that your army contains elements that can assault farther than that and spread them out so you can cover as much as your fire base as possible.
As a marine player as well as ork, I will use a mix of deep striking units like Termies with scout squads armed with bolt pistols, ccws and a missle launcher. This ensures that you have the firepower to crack skimmers if the army is mech and have more than enough CC power if they aren't.
Heavy Bolters are your friend. In the case of covering yourself against Fish of Fury, ensure that you have units that can assault at ranges longer than 12 inches.
Feel free to tell me just how wrong I am about everything and how my tactics will utterly fail for all the tried and true reasons stated in the Codicies written by the ancient masters of war. There is no such thing as a sneaky ork, right?
I regularly beat Tau with my Orks not because I close into CC and annihilate them, but because I out shoot them. The longest range massed fire in the Tau army is 30 inches. The longest ranged massed fire in the Ork army is 36 inches. See where I am going with this? As to Fish of Fury, it fails utterly because it relies on using Skimmers interposed between the assaulting unit and the Tau who are jumping out. To be effective the assault range of the unit being fired on needs to be 12 inches (6 move 6 assault). So, make certain that your army contains elements that can assault farther than that and spread them out so you can cover as much as your fire base as possible.
As a marine player as well as ork, I will use a mix of deep striking units like Termies with scout squads armed with bolt pistols, ccws and a missle launcher. This ensures that you have the firepower to crack skimmers if the army is mech and have more than enough CC power if they aren't.
Heavy Bolters are your friend. In the case of covering yourself against Fish of Fury, ensure that you have units that can assault at ranges longer than 12 inches.
Feel free to tell me just how wrong I am about everything and how my tactics will utterly fail for all the tried and true reasons stated in the Codicies written by the ancient masters of war. There is no such thing as a sneaky ork, right?
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Honestly, I think whatever Tau player you play against is an idiot. The Tau are designed to maul lightly-armoured infantry armies. I can't think of a single time I've seen the Tau lose to Tyranids or Orks. Kroot can put up a fair fight against mobs of Trukk Boyz, since there aren't that many Orks per Trukk, and if the Tau player is smart, he'll be constantly redeploying to outrange the Orks. Keep in mind that most Orks are BS2, and while their longest range weapon may be 36'', the Tau are BS3 and are going to hit a heck of a lot more often, and what they wound won't get an armor save.
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If you've got jump pack models, I'd definitely use the jump packs. You need the mobility to keep up with the crisis suits that are going to hop all over the place, and it reduces the number of shots that dug in Fire Warrior squads will have since you'll be able to get stuck in a lot faster. If you have a Chaplain to lead the assault squad, there's actually a pretty dirty trick you can use. Give the squad meltabombs. When you charge, you still need 6's to hit the skimmers, but you get to re-roll the misses. Enjoy the fireworks.
As for scouts... five men CAN be effective, depending on their armament. They make for a passable anti-infantry heavy weapons team when you've got four with bolters and one heavy bolter, although I've found there are generally better uses of the points.
If you've got points for a drop pod and a dreadnought, I'd consider taking one. Assault cannons are statistically more likely to crack armor than a lascannon now, and if you make it a Venerable dreadnought and give it tank hunters, you'll have a very menacing all-rounder. The drop pod not only will give it a tiny bit of cover from stuff opposite the drop pod when it comes in, but it'll let you put the dreadnought more or less where you need it. The Tau don't have any anti-armor close combat weapons such as power fists or meltabombs, so a dreadnought will be totally uncontested in close combat against them. The biggest threat comes from Krootox in close combat, and it's pretty negligable even then, since they need a 6 to glance the vehicle.
Oddly enough, Land Speeders work quite well against devilfish. While Space Marines may be one of the more forgiving armies to play in general, they still do require some tactics, and the use of fragile vehicles such as Land Speeders definitely falls into that catagory. If you have a speeder with a multi-melta and make effective use of what cover is available, you'll find your 65 points quite well spent when the melta connects with a loaded devilfish or a hammerhead. There tend to be bigger threats on the table to the Tau player, such as your infantry, so the odds of them actually focusing meaningful firepower on the skimmer is low enough that it should get there so long as you're careful about it.
As for scouts... five men CAN be effective, depending on their armament. They make for a passable anti-infantry heavy weapons team when you've got four with bolters and one heavy bolter, although I've found there are generally better uses of the points.
If you've got points for a drop pod and a dreadnought, I'd consider taking one. Assault cannons are statistically more likely to crack armor than a lascannon now, and if you make it a Venerable dreadnought and give it tank hunters, you'll have a very menacing all-rounder. The drop pod not only will give it a tiny bit of cover from stuff opposite the drop pod when it comes in, but it'll let you put the dreadnought more or less where you need it. The Tau don't have any anti-armor close combat weapons such as power fists or meltabombs, so a dreadnought will be totally uncontested in close combat against them. The biggest threat comes from Krootox in close combat, and it's pretty negligable even then, since they need a 6 to glance the vehicle.
Oddly enough, Land Speeders work quite well against devilfish. While Space Marines may be one of the more forgiving armies to play in general, they still do require some tactics, and the use of fragile vehicles such as Land Speeders definitely falls into that catagory. If you have a speeder with a multi-melta and make effective use of what cover is available, you'll find your 65 points quite well spent when the melta connects with a loaded devilfish or a hammerhead. There tend to be bigger threats on the table to the Tau player, such as your infantry, so the odds of them actually focusing meaningful firepower on the skimmer is low enough that it should get there so long as you're careful about it.
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I've played against more than a handful of Tau players, I doubt all of them are idiots. The problem with redeploying to "out range" the orks is that beyond 36 inches, the Tau lack many weapons that can fire at all. The best weapon they have for that situation is the hammerhead railgun, which means the Ork player needs to be prepared to silence that menace quickly. BS2 is crappy, until you are throwing handfulls of dice every turn (51 or more Str5 shots will cause casualties, regardless of a crappy BS). If, as an ork player who likes to shoot, you aren't intelligent enough to deploy your firebase in cover, you are going to get destroyed by anyone, not just the Tau.The Son of Horus said:
The Tau's BS 3 and Str5 AP5 weapons mean nothing if they aren't in range to fire. If the Tau try to slowly close the distance to bring their guns in range, without getting too close to your forces, you can back up and fire since your main guns are assault 3. If they try to quickly close the distance by Fish Of Furying you, they will outstrip the movement of their Kroot allies and be open for an Ork assault by Trukk Boyz. If they back up out of 36 inch range, you can move forward and still fire while their weapons remain out of range.
Most armies can field massed firepower that is 36 inches or longer. The Tau cannot and can be kited by a General who knows how to use the range and cover to his advantage. You may have never seen a Tau player loose to Orks or Nids, but I assure you they can and do.
I realize the ork stuff is a tangent and totally meaningless to a marine player, so I will echo what you said to him as it all seems like a totally reasonable approach.
Anyone one can lose to anyone, but what your suggesting either takes a wonderful ork player or a bad Tau player. Trying to stay out of Tau range while blasting them is no easy task. And FoF is highly effective, when used right. I don't care if you do have a trukk full of boyz, when supported and done right, it should work everytime.
But we are getting off-topic. Maybe we should start another thread to discuss anti-tau tactics?
But we are getting off-topic. Maybe we should start another thread to discuss anti-tau tactics?
Thanks for starting that other thread. So, a basic list agenst Tau would look something like this?:
Master w/power weapon etc.
Dreadnought w/drop pod
Troops
x2 Tactical Squad w/ 9 marines, Veteren Sergent
Scout Squad
7 scouts, Veteren Sergeant, power fist
Fast atttack
x2 5 assualt marines
power fist
melta bombs
I split the Ass. marines up to make it easier to hunt tanks, but I really need a better way to deal with tanks. Any help in that area would be greatly apprecated.
Master w/power weapon etc.
Dreadnought w/drop pod
Troops
x2 Tactical Squad w/ 9 marines, Veteren Sergent
Scout Squad
7 scouts, Veteren Sergeant, power fist
Fast atttack
x2 5 assualt marines
power fist
melta bombs
I split the Ass. marines up to make it easier to hunt tanks, but I really need a better way to deal with tanks. Any help in that area would be greatly apprecated.
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6,534 Posts
I'd keep the assault squad at 10-strong.
Try this out. It's roughly 1500 points.
HQ/
Master of Sanctity. Jump Pack, Bolt Pistol, Crozius, Terminator Honours
Elites/
Dreadnought. Assault cannon, storm bolter, Extra Armour. Drop Pod.
Troops/
2x 10-strong Tactical Squad. Sergeant armed with a bolt pistol and power fist. One Plasma Rifle
1x 10-strong Scout Squad. Everyone has a sniper rifle.
Fast Attack/
1x 10-strong Assault Squad. Sergeant armed with a plasma pistol and power fist. Two plasma pistols. Meltabombs.
2x Land Speeder Squadron, 1-strong. Both have multi-meltas.
Heavy Support/
1x 10-strong Devastator Squad. Three missile launchers, one lascannon.
Try this out. It's roughly 1500 points.
HQ/
Master of Sanctity. Jump Pack, Bolt Pistol, Crozius, Terminator Honours
Elites/
Dreadnought. Assault cannon, storm bolter, Extra Armour. Drop Pod.
Troops/
2x 10-strong Tactical Squad. Sergeant armed with a bolt pistol and power fist. One Plasma Rifle
1x 10-strong Scout Squad. Everyone has a sniper rifle.
Fast Attack/
1x 10-strong Assault Squad. Sergeant armed with a plasma pistol and power fist. Two plasma pistols. Meltabombs.
2x Land Speeder Squadron, 1-strong. Both have multi-meltas.
Heavy Support/
1x 10-strong Devastator Squad. Three missile launchers, one lascannon.
If you're going the drop pod route against Tau, I'd say load the whole army up in the critters and have at it.
Around here there are quite a few drop pod armies and they give Tau players fits when they drop into the middle of the battle line with rapid fire and melta weapons.
I'd say Drop pods are essential when Space Marine have a fish fry!
Around here there are quite a few drop pod armies and they give Tau players fits when they drop into the middle of the battle line with rapid fire and melta weapons.
I'd say Drop pods are essential when Space Marine have a fish fry!
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Close combat and assault cannons should do the trick.
Problem being they've got a threat range of 36". Yes, while Tau's massed fire is at 30", you have heavy weapons and they don't.matt said:devastator squad with 4 heavy bolters they kill them on threes whats not to like?
As for the assault marines, 2 squads of 5 marines have big red targets painted on them, and they will get annhilated way before they can even think about charging. That isn't speculation. That is fact. That'll be the the number one target. So yeah, a squad of 10 marines is the better path to go, not only because there are more bodies, but odd-numbered assault squads are just a horrible idea, due to half strength and all.
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