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As the title says, have you won with the new 'Nid codex? I have done nothing but get my face stomped in...
If you have won, please share how.
If you have won, please share how.
Have You Won With Tyranid?
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6,323 Posts
Not that I know fuck all about 'nids and their strengths with the new dex out, but it might help people to know what list you use that fails you so hard or what units you find weak and the armies that you're facing that are owning your shit. There might be easy fixes that people won't comment out on because that have no idea that the problem is more than you getting used to a new codex.
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That is fair. Mostly I've been getting owned by Tau and Eldar. DE kills me too, as does Necron's AV13 and flyers. Space Marines/CSM are probably my best match up but I can't ever shift their 2+ saves or their big tanks since they just kill all my big bugs.
I've been playing with everything in the codex with the exception of the Fast Attack flyers and the new big bugs.
I like running Mawlocs and Tervigons. Biovores have been pretty solid choices for me and I've had a small amount of luck infiltrating 2-4 squads of 15 Genestealers.
Last game I ran two Flyrants vs Tau and both of them survived a turn. One turn.
I'll try to dig out the actual lists I was using, but there doesn't seem to be much in the codex that doesn't turn into a pile of slush when a semi-competitive list looks at it.
I've been playing with everything in the codex with the exception of the Fast Attack flyers and the new big bugs.
I like running Mawlocs and Tervigons. Biovores have been pretty solid choices for me and I've had a small amount of luck infiltrating 2-4 squads of 15 Genestealers.
Last game I ran two Flyrants vs Tau and both of them survived a turn. One turn.
I'll try to dig out the actual lists I was using, but there doesn't seem to be much in the codex that doesn't turn into a pile of slush when a semi-competitive list looks at it.
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I have won, and again it was against marines. I think the flying big bugs are very necessary, especially against AV:13 and flyers. Tentaclids help some with that. DE and TAU are going to be tough, just from weight of fire. Against Crons, try some venomthropes, get those cover saves, and rake those aircraft and tentaclid them. That's my advice.
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My roommate had played several games with his new bugs with me and our Eldar-playing other roommate. We started an Escalation League among the three of us, and he's won 3 of his first 4 games at low points levels.
On a larger scale, with 1750 point armies, he's beaten me once and I've beaten him once or twice, IIRC, but they were good, close games that came down to the wire. I think he's lost to the Eldar the only game he's played against them.
How? Hmm. Venomthropes plus a gaunt screen for the rest of his army gives everything a 3+ cover save, which is damned annoying (less so against my cover-ignoring Noise Marines IDing his Venomthropes with Blastmasters, but...). Dual flyrant. Dakkafexes. A trygon with the plasma cannon unique relic is pretty useful. The jury is still out on Harpies and Hive Crones, though he's bought one and sometimes proxies another. I feel like tentaclids don't reliably do enough (unless you have 2 Crones firing 2 each at a Flyer), but a Vector Strike at S8 followed by a flamer template at point blank cleans up infantry nicely. The new big plasma cannon beasty--Haruspex? nah, that's the melee one. Whatever it's called--acquitted itself nobly, but I don't think he's sold on it.
On a larger scale, with 1750 point armies, he's beaten me once and I've beaten him once or twice, IIRC, but they were good, close games that came down to the wire. I think he's lost to the Eldar the only game he's played against them.
How? Hmm. Venomthropes plus a gaunt screen for the rest of his army gives everything a 3+ cover save, which is damned annoying (less so against my cover-ignoring Noise Marines IDing his Venomthropes with Blastmasters, but...). Dual flyrant. Dakkafexes. A trygon with the plasma cannon unique relic is pretty useful. The jury is still out on Harpies and Hive Crones, though he's bought one and sometimes proxies another. I feel like tentaclids don't reliably do enough (unless you have 2 Crones firing 2 each at a Flyer), but a Vector Strike at S8 followed by a flamer template at point blank cleans up infantry nicely. The new big plasma cannon beasty--Haruspex? nah, that's the melee one. Whatever it's called--acquitted itself nobly, but I don't think he's sold on it.
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Maybe my problem is that I suck. Or that the guys I play with are jerks 
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Well, there's your problem. 2x Hive Tyrants and 2-3x Hive Crones and work your way from there. Seriously, Crones are cheap, and great at wrecking face. Just be sure to hide them well when you don't go first, because they are kinda squishy when not swooping.
But really, if you can't get your playgroup to dial it down a bit so your bugs can play too, your army needs more wings. Also, what Mossy said. There's some good advice in there, somewhere... I think :crazy:
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3,694 Posts
Tau and eldar are going to kick everyone's butt so don't be afraid. thise edition, nids are all about flyrants, venomotropes, biovores, crones,dakkafexes...big bugs and nasty medium bugs. The swarm is not so swarmy, it's big nasty bugs, now.
Also, by the way you described your friends list i can feel the dark side of netlisting and uber competitve gaming..am i wrong?
btw the guys up here have lots of good insight.
My advice would be to find some good netlist of your own, a competitive ass-bag of bugs and stomp faces. But, mind you, nids are a funny, well done codex, hardly capable of taking out a min-maxed list from a top tier codex (like tau and eldar)
Also, by the way you described your friends list i can feel the dark side of netlisting and uber competitve gaming..am i wrong?
btw the guys up here have lots of good insight.
My advice would be to find some good netlist of your own, a competitive ass-bag of bugs and stomp faces. But, mind you, nids are a funny, well done codex, hardly capable of taking out a min-maxed list from a top tier codex (like tau and eldar)
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I've played my brother a few times since the new dex came out and won about half, lost about half... I play BA, and seem to kill his guys pretty well (even though we randomize are army lists), but he positions his guys so that he wins on the actual objectives - hiding small units of rippers on objectives is good, because their instinctive behavior can't take them down below one model, and at that point they stop killing themselves so they're good. His flyrants have always done well, and the crone is annoying too... Depending on your opponents, gene stealers may be good (they ignore synapse), otherwise swaming gaunts is fun.
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...you are aware that units with the Swarms special rule don't count as scoring, correct?
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Really? Damn... That certainly changes things... Where exactly does it say that? I'm looking at the swarms entry and it only mentions being vulnerable to blasts and templates and ignoring difficult terrain.
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"Scoring Units," page 123. Swarms can't be scoring or denial.
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Ahh. Well then... That's a bit annoying but oh well
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I'm gonna jump in here with some of my views.
Based on what you take you seem to lack what I consider two of the most important factors with Nids:
1. Synergy
2. Force Multiplication
1. Synergy is the basic way in which units interact with each other. In your example you mentioned that you like Mawlocs and Tervigons. I guess this is not the point but these two don't pair up very well because they perform different tasks. In an example I consider pairing Mawlocs with Lictors a better example of synergy since Lictors can infiltrate in and act as homing beacons for the Mawlocs so they don't scatter.
2. Force Multiplication is a factor that is important in most armies but I find that it is more important for Nids than for most armies out there. With Nids it's quite easy to shoot down one of something (Tervigon, Exocrine, whatever takes your fancy) but with more than one of these creatures they have a harder time dealing with it. You list a good example when you say 2-4 squads of Genestealers but as an aside I think Genestealers are utter shite in my opinion so you may want to consider something else.
Based on what you take you seem to lack what I consider two of the most important factors with Nids:
1. Synergy
2. Force Multiplication
1. Synergy is the basic way in which units interact with each other. In your example you mentioned that you like Mawlocs and Tervigons. I guess this is not the point but these two don't pair up very well because they perform different tasks. In an example I consider pairing Mawlocs with Lictors a better example of synergy since Lictors can infiltrate in and act as homing beacons for the Mawlocs so they don't scatter.
2. Force Multiplication is a factor that is important in most armies but I find that it is more important for Nids than for most armies out there. With Nids it's quite easy to shoot down one of something (Tervigon, Exocrine, whatever takes your fancy) but with more than one of these creatures they have a harder time dealing with it. You list a good example when you say 2-4 squads of Genestealers but as an aside I think Genestealers are utter shite in my opinion so you may want to consider something else.
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218 Posts
I see what you're saying about unit synergy but the point you've made is misleading. Just because Terv's and Mawlocs dont meld together well doesn't mean you should take one over the other. They have two completely different tasks to perform for a Tyranid army and thus you are free to use both of them.
Everything else Stephen says is bang on the money. Other synergy options are zoanthropes supporting Dakka-Fex's or Exocrines and venomthropes combing their awesomeness with a Aegis Defence Line.
[Edited] I ended up ranting about how I hate the dex lmao. Didn't add to the conversation... these aren't the droids you're looking for... move along!
Everything else Stephen says is bang on the money. Other synergy options are zoanthropes supporting Dakka-Fex's or Exocrines and venomthropes combing their awesomeness with a Aegis Defence Line.
[Edited] I ended up ranting about how I hate the dex lmao. Didn't add to the conversation... these aren't the droids you're looking for... move along!
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467 Posts
I will add my 2 cents for what is is worth.
I have had some pretty good success with the new codex.
From what I have learned (and everyone else) is that synapse is really important. At 1500 I have 6 separate sources and have not been in danger of losing it. I have used venomthropes but decided it was bunching up my forces too much as I was trying to take advantage of that 6 inch bubble. .
My current 1500 list is this
Flyrant - 2 TL devourers
Flyrant - 2 TL devourers (regen on the non-warlord)
Troops
5 genestealers plus a broodlord
5 genestealers plus a broodlord
Fast Attack
Hive Crone
Elites
Zoan
Zoan
Zoan
Heavy
Biovore
Biovore
I am also using the endless swarm formation
3 warriors w/barbed strangler
10 termagants
10 termagants
12 hormagaunts
12 hormagaunts
12 hormagaunts
I could be wrong about the hormagaunt numbers (they keep breaking and I keep having to change my list , I lost 6 so added regen).
The list has tabled DE, tabled DE/Edlar, and almost tabled Tau, but the game ended on turn 5.
I personally think the zoans are better then the venomthropes because they offer a chance to get catalyst, but the other powers are great too. Forcing firewarriors to be pinned is awesome. Reducing the WS/BS of anything is great. Onslaught is sweet as it gets your Tyrants closer to the enemy turn 1 to murder a squad in shooting. I often end up going second and hide my tyrants and crone all on one flank behind los terrain. Genestealers infiltrate 18 inches away in some sort of cover, hormagaunts start on the line, termagants too, zoans intermingled, if one has catalyst it is closest to tyrants. Biovores and warriors in the back. I have 5 ways to cause pinning checks (not counting the psychic powers of the zoans and tyrants), ways to deal with back field units, plenty of scoring, and lots of synapse.
The army is hard to play and making a mistake can be very costly, but if played right they can do very well. I have not played against Tau/Eldar yet and I know that would be a rough match up, but I think I could pull off a victory... maybe.
@ Stephen - I don't think genestealers are terrible. Now, in 5th I used to almost always use 2 squads because they were just so good in CC, especially outflanking. Now, I use them as another threat on the board. They are still good in CC and if they can pin a unit, even better. Combined with the 3 hormagaunt broods there are just a lot of fast CC little guys coming at people and if one gets shot up then oh well. Even better, stealers don't need synapse and thus IMO make a good scoring unit. Broodlords are still great in challenges too.
I have had some pretty good success with the new codex.
From what I have learned (and everyone else) is that synapse is really important. At 1500 I have 6 separate sources and have not been in danger of losing it. I have used venomthropes but decided it was bunching up my forces too much as I was trying to take advantage of that 6 inch bubble. .
My current 1500 list is this
Flyrant - 2 TL devourers
Flyrant - 2 TL devourers (regen on the non-warlord)
Troops
5 genestealers plus a broodlord
5 genestealers plus a broodlord
Fast Attack
Hive Crone
Elites
Zoan
Zoan
Zoan
Heavy
Biovore
Biovore
I am also using the endless swarm formation
3 warriors w/barbed strangler
10 termagants
10 termagants
12 hormagaunts
12 hormagaunts
12 hormagaunts
I could be wrong about the hormagaunt numbers (they keep breaking and I keep having to change my list , I lost 6 so added regen).
The list has tabled DE, tabled DE/Edlar, and almost tabled Tau, but the game ended on turn 5.
I personally think the zoans are better then the venomthropes because they offer a chance to get catalyst, but the other powers are great too. Forcing firewarriors to be pinned is awesome. Reducing the WS/BS of anything is great. Onslaught is sweet as it gets your Tyrants closer to the enemy turn 1 to murder a squad in shooting. I often end up going second and hide my tyrants and crone all on one flank behind los terrain. Genestealers infiltrate 18 inches away in some sort of cover, hormagaunts start on the line, termagants too, zoans intermingled, if one has catalyst it is closest to tyrants. Biovores and warriors in the back. I have 5 ways to cause pinning checks (not counting the psychic powers of the zoans and tyrants), ways to deal with back field units, plenty of scoring, and lots of synapse.
The army is hard to play and making a mistake can be very costly, but if played right they can do very well. I have not played against Tau/Eldar yet and I know that would be a rough match up, but I think I could pull off a victory... maybe.
@ Stephen - I don't think genestealers are terrible. Now, in 5th I used to almost always use 2 squads because they were just so good in CC, especially outflanking. Now, I use them as another threat on the board. They are still good in CC and if they can pin a unit, even better. Combined with the 3 hormagaunt broods there are just a lot of fast CC little guys coming at people and if one gets shot up then oh well. Even better, stealers don't need synapse and thus IMO make a good scoring unit. Broodlords are still great in challenges too.
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Really any number of strategies can work. However the important thing is to make sure the units you take work well together.
Crones work well when they start off the board, or leave the board first turn to swoop on later already closed with the enemy. Making this work better means taking a swarmlord or such to bring reserves on faster.
Trygons and mawlocs as well work well with a lictor to mark their entry point and prevent scatter. Again, the swarmlord is well suited to speeding up this process.
Venomthropes are amazing, made better with aegis lines in your list.
Zoanthropes are also amazing, but tend to compete with lictors and venomthropes.
So you see the trick is really to focus on one or two central strategies and build your list around that.
Crones work well when they start off the board, or leave the board first turn to swoop on later already closed with the enemy. Making this work better means taking a swarmlord or such to bring reserves on faster.
Trygons and mawlocs as well work well with a lictor to mark their entry point and prevent scatter. Again, the swarmlord is well suited to speeding up this process.
Venomthropes are amazing, made better with aegis lines in your list.
Zoanthropes are also amazing, but tend to compete with lictors and venomthropes.
So you see the trick is really to focus on one or two central strategies and build your list around that.
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This Saturday I have a 1999 game vs IG. Any advice for me going into the meat grinder?
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Tyranid owners have always been shafted by GW, they are the army to get the most frequent and violent swings per unit, from viable to not viable from edition to edition and from codex to codex and sometimes even overnight with errata/ FAQs.
Expect each and every one of your good things to become bad or sub par overnight on four separate occasions between release and next codex. In 4th/5th they didn't even have a single thing in their codex I would want to use in any other army.
That said, as has been mentioned above, there are decent Nid lists out there right now, but expect that to last 3-6 months.
Expect each and every one of your good things to become bad or sub par overnight on four separate occasions between release and next codex. In 4th/5th they didn't even have a single thing in their codex I would want to use in any other army.
That said, as has been mentioned above, there are decent Nid lists out there right now, but expect that to last 3-6 months.
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Oh yeah, there's only Tournament Organizers banning the use of formations purely on account of how great the Skyblight Formation is. (ok, and the tau one, but...)
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