[The Son of Horus]

Army builder has been giving me some grief about including a Deathwatch Kill Team lead by a Librarian in an army comprised mostly of my Lions Rampant, who have "Have Faith in Suspicion" as their minor drawback trait. I assumed that in the context of Apocalypse, that meant that I still couldn't have a Lions Rampant Librarian, but I'd be able to bring a Deathwatch squad which included one. The rules for "Have Faith In Suspicion" says the army may not include any psykers or have any allied psykers, but restrictions on allies and the like are lifted for Apocalypse. I'm not sure what to make of that. What's everyone's thoughts on bringing a Librarian-lead Deathwatch Kill Team in that context?

 

[Silb]

if traits and doctrines apply in apocalypse then the drawback traits should apply. On the other hand, all the major drawbacks have an impact on the force organization chart, which as we all know does not exist in apocalypse. I think the most likely possibility is that traits and doctrines don't apply at all in apocalypse. If they do apply then I think you still can't use a librarian because the rule is just a fancy way of saying NO PSYKERS IN YOUR ARMY! NO EXCEPTIONS!

 

[Elchimpster]

Basically, the Lions Rampant wouldn't ally with the Deathwatch Kill Team if it was led by a Psyker. Lions Rampant are stubborn bastards that aren't going to ally with any force that has a psyker in it.

If you want to use the trait, that's what you get.

HOWEVER...if you run them as a codex chapter, sans traits, you're fine.

What it comes down to is that if you want the benefit, you have to take the drawback as well

 

[Morgal]

well with no FOC who's to say there part of the sane army?
So one force has the lib.

the other contains the other units...they just both happen to be on the field.....

 

[Silb]

As I asked before, can traits even be used in apocalypse? If they can it is incredibly unfair. I mean with no force organization chart, you could get one trait advantage and use the Faithful unto Death drawback, which limits how many fast attack, heavy support, and elite choices you can take. The lack of limits in apocalypse means this drawback will do virtually nothing.

 

[Elchimpster]

As I asked before, can traits even be used in apocalypse? If they can it is incredibly unfair. I mean with no force organization chart, you could get one trait advantage and use the Faithful unto Death drawback, which limits how many fast attack, heavy support, and elite choices you can take. The lack of limits in apocalypse means this drawback will do virtually nothing.

Yes, traits can be used. It's up to the player to moderate himself as far as the non-existent FOC goes. The idea of Apocalypse is to play to the spirit of the game, not to the letter. Yes, you CAN take Faithful Unto Death and rule-rape it as far as you like...the point is that Apocalypse is really made for people who won't do that, and the ones that do...are EASILY seen as dickheads and rapidly ostracized.

Welcome to Apocalypse!

 

[Elchimpster]

well with no FOC who's to say there part of the sane army?
So one force has the lib.

the other contains the other units...they just both happen to be on the field.....

Nope, that's against the spirit of the rule. I mean, if you want to sidestep that sort of thing, you can.

Problem is that what happens when people start squeezing things in with a reason that allows an abuse of the concept? Then it's okay for everyone to do it, then we have an abusive situation.

Lions Rampant won't fight alongside psykers...period.
If you want to hedge around it, that's on you. Your opponant will likely never know. Does that make it "right"? That's up to you really.

 

[The Son of Horus]

I appreciate the dissenting opinions-- it was exactly what I was looking for. Part of moderating yourself in apocalypse is knowing how other players feel about what you're doing. Since there's a clear dissenting opinion, I'll have to ask my opponent how they feel about it before the game. My logic on the subject is that as an Inquisitorial force, the Lions are going to have to put up with the Deathwatch being there-- they don't have to like the Librarian, or help him out in any way beyond what an Inquisitor tells them to, but since the Librarian is not a Lion Rampant, he'd be able to be included since he's from a different Chapter, which presumably would have different Traits. You could, for example, have both Dark Angels and Black Templars on the same side, for example-- Dark Angels Librarians are quite noteworthy most of the time, but the Black Templars don't field Librarians.

Again, I'll just leave it in my opponents' hands, since a strong argument against it has been presented. Thanks for your input.

 

[Engelus]

well, look at it this way, it is in no way game breaking, he couldnt use his psychic powers to help out a lions rampant marine, so hes seperate.

besides, it'd be dumb if your lions rampant can ally with orks or necrons, but not a space marine librarian in the.

"we'll trust those boys as long as theres no wierdboys in their ranks, but I'll be damned if I trust a librarian who is proven loyal to the emperor"
that just totally doesn't make any sense in fluff, I think this is a situation where the spirit of apocalypse outweighs the spirit of standard 40k