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Yeah... the Vindicator's Marksman skill (pg 26 Daemonhunters) discusses choosing which model you can kill, and says he needs to have range and sight, so an ability limiting his sight would still affect the vindicare. And more specifically, the fact he has the Spy Mask only asserts that he is subject to sight limiting abilities such as Night Fight. However, the Veil's ability isn't night fight, so his mask isn't going to help him shoot the shadowseer.

Claiming that 'ignores targeting restrictions' includes being able to ignore Veil of Tears is a pretty 'between the lines' reading of the rules. What about the mountain in between my shadowseer and your assassin? That's a targeting restriction, can't he ignore it? Of course not.
 

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The Veil of Tears specifically says "Attempting to target" Line of sight does not apply to Veil of Tears, nor is it ever mentioned. "Spotting" distance is what you roll to target them.

The Vindicare ignores ALL targeting restrictions except for range and line of sight.
 

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Necrontyr said:
The Veil of Tears specifically says "Attempting to target" Line of sight does not apply to Veil of Tears, nor is it ever mentioned. "Spotting" distance is what you roll to target them.

The Vindicare ignores ALL targeting restrictions except for range and line of sight.
The answer to your argument is right in your own post. The Vindicare can ignore all targeting restrictions except for two, range and LOS. Veil of Tears is an ability that is a targeting restriction, so he ignores it unless it either affects range or line of sight. What does Veil of Tears affect? Range! Which is a targeting restriction it specifically says he has to follow! (And really, range is not a targeting restriction, but for the sake of this argument we'll assume it's one.)

You underlined the wrong word in your post:

"The Vindicare ignores ALL targeting restrictions except for range and line of sight."
 

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Range as in Range of his gun, Veil of Tears does not affect the range of any weapon, only the range in which the unit can be targeted. Nothing in the game changes the range of your weapons, only the range in which you can see, or like veil of tears, the range you can target.
 

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Necrontyr said:
Range as in Range of his gun, Veil of Tears does not affect the range of any weapon, only the range in which the unit can be targeted. Nothing in the game changes the range of your weapons, only the range in which you can see, or like veil of tears, the range you can target.
Where did I say anything about the range of his gun? Where does his rules say anything about the range of his gun? Veil of Tears affects his spotting distance, you said that yourself. Your spotting distance is the range you can see and thus the range you can fire at regardless of the range of your weapon. His rules specifically state that he ignores targeting restrictions except for range and LOS. If his range is reduced to 12 inches because of a spotting distance restriction, it wouldn't matter if his gun was 120" range because, as you said yourself, spotting distance has nothing to do with the range of the gun. Nothing in his rules state or even suggest that he is immune to effects taht reduce his spotting distance and in fact the very presence of his night fighting wargear suggests the exact opposite of what you're claiming.

I don't mean to sound like a jerk but setting up a straw man argument isn't going to help you prove your point.
 

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Alright, since it's obvious we'll never have a consensus, I move for a vote for who thinks this actually works.

I vote no, on the basis that you're buggering with words.
 

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Warboss Dakka said:
Ahh, but Night Fight does not affect the range of any weapon either, and affects the range at which a unit can be targeted just like Veil of Tears, and yet he is not immune to Night Fight rules. Also, does it say "Range as in the range of his weapon" or mention the range of his weapon at all? Or does it just say range? You can't argue semantics and nit pick about RAW wording when it supports your case and then make ambiguous assumptions and ignore the RAW when it doesn't.
PG 84 Of your Rule Book:
"Roll 2D6 and multiply the result by 3, rolling once per unit only. This is the maximum range that any non-barrage weapon can fire."
Seems pretty obvious there.

PG 49 of the Eldar Codex:
"Any unit wishing to target the Shadowseer or unit she is with must roll 2D6. This is their spotting distance in inches."

Veil of Tears has nothing to do with line of sight, nor with range. It has to do with targeting. The test is rolled to target the unit. Night fight is rolled to determine range. Since a Vindicare ignores targetting restrictions, it is a fair argument to say they ignore Veil of Tears.

But, this is the joy of the internet! We can argue about rules all we want here and not lose any time in our games, but if it ever did came up in a game, I would just say roll a D6 and be done with it.
 

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Plain and simple
Guess fire/ordinace/skatter gets past veil of tears since it does not specifically target the harlies and thats what viel of tears affects, units specifically targeting the squad
 

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That has precisely dick to do with this debate.

I've gone back and read the Marksman special rule in its every appearance. Since by the direct written rule it is unspecific as to whether or not this works, it comes down to the designers' intent, whatever that may have been. As none of these Marksman rules were written with knowledge of this forthcoming Veil of Tears ability, and the Veil of Tears was obviously written in ignorance of the Marksman, I would have to say that the Marksman rule was not intended to allow the Vindicaire to target the unit.

However, since this is not actually substantiated or disproved, it'll have to come down to a roll in a game until a FAQ is written.
 

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Plain and simple
Guess fire/ordinace/skatter gets past veil of tears since it does not specifically target the harlies and thats what viel of tears affects, units specifically targeting the squad
This does indeed have nothing to do with the Marksman debate and is completely wrong into the bargain. Guess weapons still have to pick a target and are units firing at them, and as such come under the "Any unit wishing to target the harlies...".
 

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Yeah in 3rd ed, guess range weaponary would probably be ok against veil of tears equipped harlequins but nowadays it can't unless you roll high enough. I can still this being contested at the GT final though on multiple occasions (sadly probably to drag the game out).

I'd lean towards the vinicare having to roll the distance to see the harlies buts i'd ask a ref to be sure (or to pass the buck onto them at the very least).

I'm quite looking forward to having my first space clown sighting. Then leaping FWs out in front of them and shooting them down :eek: Hopefully anyway!
 

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I'm quite looking forward to having my first space clown sighting. Then leaping FWs out in front of them and shooting them down Hopefully anyway!
Not before they've got into your pants and eaten your Crisis first!
 

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Necrontyr said:
Warboss Dakka said:
Ahh, but Night Fight does not affect the range of any weapon either, and affects the range at which a unit can be targeted just like Veil of Tears, and yet he is not immune to Night Fight rules. Also, does it say "Range as in the range of his weapon" or mention the range of his weapon at all? Or does it just say range? You can't argue semantics and nit pick about RAW wording when it supports your case and then make ambiguous assumptions and ignore the RAW when it doesn't.
PG 84 Of your Rule Book:
"Roll 2D6 and multiply the result by 3, rolling once per unit only. This is the maximum range that any non-barrage weapon can fire."
Seems pretty obvious there.

PG 49 of the Eldar Codex:
"Any unit wishing to target the Shadowseer or unit she is with must roll 2D6. This is their spotting distance in inches."

Veil of Tears has nothing to do with line of sight, nor with range. It has to do with targeting. The test is rolled to target the unit. Night fight is rolled to determine range. Since a Vindicare ignores targetting restrictions, it is a fair argument to say they ignore Veil of Tears.

But, this is the joy of the internet! We can argue about rules all we want here and not lose any time in our games, but if it ever did came up in a game, I would just say roll a D6 and be done with it.
So, just so I have your point absolutely straight, you do not believe that spotting distance range is a range restriction? If this is indeed what you believe, i am totally baffled as to why you believe that. If someone could post the newest rule for marksman special rule it would help, but I really am having a hard time biteing off on the idea that spotting range does not constitute a range restriction, since the word "range" is directly in the rule.
 

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I'm with you Warboss.

You could also extend your argument to units beyond the maximum range of the exitus rifle, or more importantly for this argument, out of LOS of the Vindicare. Do these limitations also count as targetting restrictions (and therefore get ignored)? I think not.

The targetting restriction circumvention applies to target priority, choosing who dies in an enemy unit and shooting at independant characters only (IIRC).
 

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RaW says absolutely nothing about weapon range. It says targeting, then it says distance to spot. It seems they made a point to avoid the word range. Your range to target the unit, (which happens before Range of the weapon is checked.) is what the Veil of tears affects. Never does it say anything about the range of the weapon, or LoS. So logically by RaW (GW's own policy) it is considered a targeting restriction and is therefore ignored by the Vindicare's marksmen rule.

Basically here is how a normal shooting phase takes place:
1) Target a unit
2) Check Range of Weapons
3) Roll to hit, etc

and now a shooting phase against a Veil of Tears unit of Harlequins:
1) Attempt to target (using the 2d6 rule)
2) Check range of weapons if able to target
3) Roll to hit, etc

Also the ability to ignore targeting restriction does not specify what kind of restrictions it ignore, only what kind it does not (Range of Gun, and LoS). It states ignores all targeting restrictions.
 

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Necrontyr said:
RaW says absolutely nothing about weapon range. It says targeting, then it says distance to spot. It seems they made a point to avoid the word range. Your range to target the unit, (which happens before Range of the weapon is checked.) is what the Veil of tears affects. Never does it say anything about the range of the weapon, or LoS. So logically by RaW (GW's own policy) it is considered a targeting restriction and is therefore ignored by the Vindicare's marksmen rule.

Basically here is how a normal shooting phase takes place:
1) Target a unit
2) Check Range of Weapons
3) Roll to hit, etc

and now a shooting phase against a Veil of Tears unit of Harlequins:
1) Attempt to target (using the 2d6 rule)
2) Check range of weapons if able to target
3) Roll to hit, etc

Also the ability to ignore targeting restriction does not specify what kind of restrictions it ignore, only what kind it does not (Range of Gun, and LoS). It states ignores all targeting restrictions.
This is why I've asked for all of both rules to be posted over and over again, there is no point in me arguing RAW if you keep changing the wording of the rule. IE, you keep sumarizing it as saying something and then when I point out how the RAW does not support that you tell me the wording does not actually say this or that. I don't think you're doing it on purpose but it's damned annoying to keep having to second guess which part you've sumarized and which is the actual wording of the rules. Just a bit ago you said there was nothing that affected the range of a weapon, then told me the night fight rules specifically say they do. I'm not arguing with you to win an argument, I'm arguing with you because I want to know the answer to this question, if we continue to argue about RAW without the exact wording being posted, we are going to get nowhere.

Also, does the marksman rule actually say "Range of gun" or just "range"? This will matter a whole lot to Tau players...I believe it is ludicrois to assume that "distance" and "range" are not interchangeable terms. In other words, to claim that "Spotting distance" does not constitue a range restriction because they used the word distance instead of range, is silly. Do you honestly believe they purposefully avoided the word range because they were thinking specifically about the vindicare's marksman rule or do you think they didn't use the word range because in this instance it has the exact same meaning as the word distance? I guess eitehr way it won't matter because we are talking raw.

In that case, I would simply say that no where in the Veil of Tears rule (as it has been sumarized) does it specifically say it is a targeting restriction. It uses the words attempting to target but not "restriction" so therefore does not count as one because of RAW. (I fully ackowledge that this is pedantic and downright stupid, but if that's the level we are going to analyze the rules at then so be it.)
 

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Marksman: You may nominate the model targeted by the Vindicare Assassin when he is shooting, such as a Sergeant or a heavy weapons trooper. This means you get to choose which model is taken off, not the enemy. In addition, the Vindicare can target any model in range and line of sight, regardless of any targeting restrictions (such as independent characters within 6” of another unit).

So necrontyr, you’re saying that because the shadowseer is within range of your rifle and your line of sight is unobstructed by terrain, that you can pick him out regardless of the veil. However, ‘spotting distance’ is how far you can see, thus it affect line of sight and Marksman won’t save you.

Also, if we’re going to be uber-RAW, please note the next line of the Veil rule, “If models are not within spotting range, they may not fire that turn.” Fine, you ignore the Veil as a targeting restriction and choose the shadowseer as your target. Great. You get to target the shadowseer. That’s all that Marksman lets you do. You still can’t fire if you’re not within spotting distance. Nothing in the Markman rule lets you ‘always fire.’ Marksman lets you pick out the target, Veil keeps you from shooting.

But that’s a pretty ‘between the lines’ reading, as is your argument in general. But if you pulled it on me, I’d return with the fact you can’t fire. In reality, it seems very reasonable that ‘spotting distance’ is how far you can see, so if something is farther away that you can see, it’s not in your line of sight.
 

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Grr, I was just about to say all that!

Spy masks only help again Night Fight Rules, so Veil of Tears is still in effect. The marksman skill only removes targeting restrictions, as stated by everyone. Targeting means SELECTING something visually.
Nowhere does Veil of Tears say you can't TARGET certain members or anything of that sort, only that you must roll to see if they are in range which the Veil can possibly remove them from.
Marksman speficially says they must be in range and LoS, regardless of restrictions present in those parameters. But, Veil of Tears putting you out of LoS removes the Vindicare from those parameters, therefore superseding the rule in a clever and obvious fashion.
Further arguement is moot and off topic as it is.

-Khaine-
 

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Don't know if this matters any, but don't ever try to field an entirely Harlaquin army.
A friend of mine once downloaded the Internet codex, and decided they would be fun to collect. He and I had a small, 500 point battle against my Tyranids, using various models to represent the Harlaquins. All together he had 12 models to my 40. Harlequins may be good, but they can only kill so many troops at a time...
(I won the game, by the way 8))
 

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The rules have changed now so the harlequins being discussed here are very different to the ones from the old CA codex. Ive won games with the old codex rules though, but they were an army that was easy to counter once you had a little experience against them
 
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