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I'd expect a FAQ on the subject, but as it stands, summoned daemons definitely ARE scoring units (as, incidentally, are Spawn.)
Posts by The Son of Horus
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1. Go to your local GW or independent retailer... they've got store copies. While I can't tell you HOW to get one, there are also PDF copies floating around. I've had it for about a month and a half now. :|
2. No Veteran Skills. At all. Chosen can Infiltrate, Berserkers have Furious Charge... but other wise, that's IT. Nothing else has any sort of veteran ability, and in the case of Chosen and Berserkers, it's default, not an option.
3. Alpha Legion can't Infiltrate or take Cultists, since there aren't Veteran Skills options or a Cultist unit entry in the codex. It's all one army list-- there aren't any Legion specific rules, which, quite frankly, is kinda lame since they made people adhere to the fluff. No Apostle for the Word Bearers, although if you mark your Lord with the Mark of Tzeentch, it's essentially the same effect (4+ invulnerable). Raptors aren't 0-1 for anyone any longer, although they're nowhere near as cool as they are in the nearly obsolete codex, so Night Lords are pretty much unchanged once you get past them not having the option to take Stealth Adept (as again, no Veteran Skills.)
The reason Iron Warriors are a toughie to make with the new Codex is because Obliterators have moved from Elites to Heavy Support and aren't half as useful since they're a flat T4 and are five points more expensive now; Iron Warriors are purely a blurb in the fluff like every other Legion so there's no special rules for an Iron Warriors army (and thus, no fourth Heavy slot); and Dreadnoughts are Elites. There's no Basilisk in the Codex, although the Vindicator is available to anyone and in unlimited numbers (or, rather, 3, since it's a Heavy). Honestly, I'm having a similar problem with my Sons of Horus... I used the Alpha Legion rules so I could take Infiltrate for less since I didn't use marked units or daemons anyway, and I gave everyone infiltrate, so it seemed silly to pay the extra points... but my entire army is sort of built around that rapid strike from close in, and it's not possible anymore.
2. No Veteran Skills. At all. Chosen can Infiltrate, Berserkers have Furious Charge... but other wise, that's IT. Nothing else has any sort of veteran ability, and in the case of Chosen and Berserkers, it's default, not an option.
3. Alpha Legion can't Infiltrate or take Cultists, since there aren't Veteran Skills options or a Cultist unit entry in the codex. It's all one army list-- there aren't any Legion specific rules, which, quite frankly, is kinda lame since they made people adhere to the fluff. No Apostle for the Word Bearers, although if you mark your Lord with the Mark of Tzeentch, it's essentially the same effect (4+ invulnerable). Raptors aren't 0-1 for anyone any longer, although they're nowhere near as cool as they are in the nearly obsolete codex, so Night Lords are pretty much unchanged once you get past them not having the option to take Stealth Adept (as again, no Veteran Skills.)
The reason Iron Warriors are a toughie to make with the new Codex is because Obliterators have moved from Elites to Heavy Support and aren't half as useful since they're a flat T4 and are five points more expensive now; Iron Warriors are purely a blurb in the fluff like every other Legion so there's no special rules for an Iron Warriors army (and thus, no fourth Heavy slot); and Dreadnoughts are Elites. There's no Basilisk in the Codex, although the Vindicator is available to anyone and in unlimited numbers (or, rather, 3, since it's a Heavy). Honestly, I'm having a similar problem with my Sons of Horus... I used the Alpha Legion rules so I could take Infiltrate for less since I didn't use marked units or daemons anyway, and I gave everyone infiltrate, so it seemed silly to pay the extra points... but my entire army is sort of built around that rapid strike from close in, and it's not possible anymore.
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Well, GW can lick my (expunged by the holy orders of the Emperor's Inquisition), so you can ask me.
It might just be the fact that both local World Eaters players here are...erm... a bit shallow, but they're quite pleased with the change in Khorne Berserkers. WS5 means they're basically doing the same amount of damage in close combat through raw hits as they would with WS4 and a chainaxe, and for no change directly in points. Furious Charge is built in for the same cost that you'd pay for it in the current Codex though, so you're basically spending another three points per model for a superior fighting unit. No Blood Frenzy means you've got a bit too much control over Berserker units, imo... but the whole point of the Codex was to dumb it down for people like the local World Eaters players who are too dim to flip between an armoury page and the unit entry...
Emperor's Children are a bunch of punks, and always have been. The reason that the Blastmaster is 40 points is because it's able to put out a S8 AP3 small blast that causes pinning checks. Lash of Submission makes the enemy come to you, out of cover, and into charge range for your I5 Noise Marines, whose Aspiring Champions can use their doom sirens on to reduce to gibbering goo. Every time Lucius makes an armor save or an invulnerable save, the model that dealt the wound takes a S4 hit with no armor save allowed. The only thing that keeps that from being downright retarded, as opposed to just incredibly broken, is that the Lash of Torment reduces all enemy attacks against him by 1, to a minimum of 1. And Lucius has his power sword, which is sort of a moot point in the end... you almost WANT him to get pummelled...
True Grit is completely moot with the way the rules are set. Plague Marines may be I3 now, but they've still got a bolter, bolt pistol, and close combat weapon. It's still the same effect as True Grit, but you get a charge bonus and it's one fewer rule people who can't be bothered with subtle variations have to know. Have fun killing Plague Marines, though... of the cults, they're going to be the ones that are dominating everything since they're tactically flexible and obnoxiously hard to kill-- T4(5) with Feel No Pain means a Space Marine has to wound it on a 5+ with either bolter or chainsword, and then the Plague Marine has to subsequently fail its armour save and its Feel No Pain roll. T5 and Feel No Pain is better protection than Terminator Armour, and it's all rolled into a 23 point package. Oh, and they have krak grenades, too-- so even if you don't give the Aspiring Champion a power fist, that dreadnought that kills them on a 2+ to wound may be taking a couple glancing hits in return, so it's not like there's really even a safe way to go about neutralizing them. Their ONLY drawback is that they're I3, and it just downright doesn't matter since they're so hard to kill. Typhus, like Lucius and Abaddon, is kind of a waste of points unless you're sure he can kill about twice his points value. The odds of rolling a 1 and wounding the character with the daemon weapon are quite high-- in fact, in a single game, the probability is almost 1. And a 1 means not only do you not get to attack, but you take a wound with no armor save or invulnerable save allowed. And remember, a wounded independent character is worth half his victory points. Yes, he may have a force weapon manreaper, but you know... at the expense of handing your opponent 113 victory points with a probability of nearly 1, it's kind of not worth it... it's better to just take a terminator lord with a power weapon.
Here's why Thousand Sons are 23 points apiece. Against a solid 80% of the weapons in the game, your 4+ invulnerable save counts for a whole lot of nothing. AP3 is just as good as AP5 against quite a few things as well-- only against Space Marines are the Inferno Bolts valuable, and while there are still a disproportionate number of Space Marines running around tabletops, there are a drastically increasing number of Imperial Guard and Tau players.
Also, Thousand Sons are tactically inflexible, which makes them far less useful in a tournament setting particularly than their entry in the Codex would otherwise suggest. The sorcerer's inability to take any equipment is, to put it mildly, removing one of the squad's testicles, and giving them such specialized abilities (basically, Space Marine hunters) at the expense of tactical flexibility means that if there's nothing for them to specifically go after, they're not really doing anything useful for you, and they're a lot of points to be effectively a dead weight.
It might just be the fact that both local World Eaters players here are...erm... a bit shallow, but they're quite pleased with the change in Khorne Berserkers. WS5 means they're basically doing the same amount of damage in close combat through raw hits as they would with WS4 and a chainaxe, and for no change directly in points. Furious Charge is built in for the same cost that you'd pay for it in the current Codex though, so you're basically spending another three points per model for a superior fighting unit. No Blood Frenzy means you've got a bit too much control over Berserker units, imo... but the whole point of the Codex was to dumb it down for people like the local World Eaters players who are too dim to flip between an armoury page and the unit entry...
Emperor's Children are a bunch of punks, and always have been. The reason that the Blastmaster is 40 points is because it's able to put out a S8 AP3 small blast that causes pinning checks. Lash of Submission makes the enemy come to you, out of cover, and into charge range for your I5 Noise Marines, whose Aspiring Champions can use their doom sirens on to reduce to gibbering goo. Every time Lucius makes an armor save or an invulnerable save, the model that dealt the wound takes a S4 hit with no armor save allowed. The only thing that keeps that from being downright retarded, as opposed to just incredibly broken, is that the Lash of Torment reduces all enemy attacks against him by 1, to a minimum of 1. And Lucius has his power sword, which is sort of a moot point in the end... you almost WANT him to get pummelled...
True Grit is completely moot with the way the rules are set. Plague Marines may be I3 now, but they've still got a bolter, bolt pistol, and close combat weapon. It's still the same effect as True Grit, but you get a charge bonus and it's one fewer rule people who can't be bothered with subtle variations have to know. Have fun killing Plague Marines, though... of the cults, they're going to be the ones that are dominating everything since they're tactically flexible and obnoxiously hard to kill-- T4(5) with Feel No Pain means a Space Marine has to wound it on a 5+ with either bolter or chainsword, and then the Plague Marine has to subsequently fail its armour save and its Feel No Pain roll. T5 and Feel No Pain is better protection than Terminator Armour, and it's all rolled into a 23 point package. Oh, and they have krak grenades, too-- so even if you don't give the Aspiring Champion a power fist, that dreadnought that kills them on a 2+ to wound may be taking a couple glancing hits in return, so it's not like there's really even a safe way to go about neutralizing them. Their ONLY drawback is that they're I3, and it just downright doesn't matter since they're so hard to kill. Typhus, like Lucius and Abaddon, is kind of a waste of points unless you're sure he can kill about twice his points value. The odds of rolling a 1 and wounding the character with the daemon weapon are quite high-- in fact, in a single game, the probability is almost 1. And a 1 means not only do you not get to attack, but you take a wound with no armor save or invulnerable save allowed. And remember, a wounded independent character is worth half his victory points. Yes, he may have a force weapon manreaper, but you know... at the expense of handing your opponent 113 victory points with a probability of nearly 1, it's kind of not worth it... it's better to just take a terminator lord with a power weapon.
Here's why Thousand Sons are 23 points apiece. Against a solid 80% of the weapons in the game, your 4+ invulnerable save counts for a whole lot of nothing. AP3 is just as good as AP5 against quite a few things as well-- only against Space Marines are the Inferno Bolts valuable, and while there are still a disproportionate number of Space Marines running around tabletops, there are a drastically increasing number of Imperial Guard and Tau players.
Also, Thousand Sons are tactically inflexible, which makes them far less useful in a tournament setting particularly than their entry in the Codex would otherwise suggest. The sorcerer's inability to take any equipment is, to put it mildly, removing one of the squad's testicles, and giving them such specialized abilities (basically, Space Marine hunters) at the expense of tactical flexibility means that if there's nothing for them to specifically go after, they're not really doing anything useful for you, and they're a lot of points to be effectively a dead weight.
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This probably doesn't mean much since Andy Chambers doesn't work for GW anymore, but I have a friend who knows him, and according to him, prior to Mr. Chambers leaving GW, the plan was to release the Chaos Codex, then make the Daemonic Codex, and release altogether five seperate suppliments that are more like the old Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolf sized books for Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, and Nurgle, as well as one focusing solely on the Sons of Horus / Black Legion. Making everything into a core codex with all the obvious options in it to make any army list previously available is the priority first, and once all the armies have those out, then they're going to simply expand on those core books. Apparently, it's some kind of marketing strategy.Jacobite said:
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