[hephesto]

I guess I must have done something right in a previous life. I've gotten my greedy little claws on the new chaos codex and had a good chance and time reading it through. And I think I can safely say that things are as bad as some doomsayer have been telling us...and who I almost started to believed.

Didn't get a chance to fully read it through, figured I'd stick to the rules and lovely pics. To beat right now to give more details, but ask me tomorrow and I'll try to answer as correctly as I can. In fact have read through nearly all the rules I can only say that two things are a but 'could be better' everything else looked pretty good. The 'bleh'parts were some of the renegade legion names and a few units that are simple SM copies (raptors, landraider and predator).

Few things I can quickly confirm;
- daemon weapon is fixed cost, your mark determines it specific effects- is two-handed power weapon that grants D6 additional attacks + mark bonus (40 points)
- daemonic gifts are gone
- chosen may have 4 members replacing gear for special weapons (ranged and cc) and a heavy weapon
- termies are cheaper and have the option of replacing gear with a pair of lighting claws
- possessed are indeed as random as rumored
- csm 1 special weapon, second only from 10 or more in the unit
- cult troops are seperate entries (blastmaster seems very expensive)
- bikers down to 1 attack
- spawns (1-3) seem a bit random and fragile, but with some experimenting could become very cool. And they do not take up a slot on the organisation chart.
- raptors loose hit-and-run, but become cheaper (20), loose the 0-1 and have access to marks...I can already see the multitude of conversions for the next golden daemon contest :wink:
- havocs may buy for weapons, group from 5-20
- oblits up in prize, loose invul save and 1T
- my only real disappointment so far - the lesser daemons - 8 complete units kicked out for a generic daemon - still for 13 points a pop they aren't bad
- greater daemons, though a bit uninspiring, seem great value for their buck(100 points)
- new huron blackheart character finally before I black-out is, although not bad, not as good or special as he could have been
- on a very positive note (for me anyway) Fabius Bile is still in da house and better then ever. No more random stats and still playing the deranged genetic manipulator.

- Have more written down, but I just can' t type anymore...sorry guys.....in a few hours (excuse the typoe, I can hardly sit up straight i my chair at the moment )


Cheers :mrgreen:


-Hephesto-

 

[hephesto]

Alrighty, I'm back amongst the living....ask away :wink:

 

[Hespithe]

Thanks, hephesto...

First question: Do Lesser Daemons count as scoring units?

 

[hephesto]

I looked for this and was unable to find anything that said they are not scoring units. So I'd say yes. Believe the exact wording was they do not take up force organisation chart slot, but otherwise are treated like they are a Troop unit.

In fact the only real difference with normal troops is that they deepstrike to icons and have an invul save. No more instability or differences all daemon types are now the same. So for now that means no nurglings, but this should be fixed by next year (daemon codex).


Next :wink:

 

[The Son of Horus]

I'd expect a FAQ on the subject, but as it stands, summoned daemons definitely ARE scoring units (as, incidentally, are Spawn.)

 

[The Wraithlord]

Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes are also scoring units now.

 

[Hespithe]

And no daemonic instability! How can the new 'dex be despised?

 

[hephesto]

Well I rather like it, but I do agree that the customisation has been cut down like crazy. Real shame.

Whatsmore this new codex does allow you to take a more diverse amy, taking units from all different stuff. Unfortunately this does mean that having certain fluff armies is tough as nails, reworking my Iron Warriors is turning into a tough job as I don't want to take cult marines, icons or daemons. Meaning that I'll most likely end up with a horde of csm's if I want to stick with my theme, but I'll get it to work...eventually.

Still in general I'm happy with the new codex, though I can understand why some people with certain armies will be disappointed.

 

[Rahb]

1. Your a lucky SOB!
2. Veteran Skills - any changes?
3. You say your having difficulty reworking Iron Warriors. Did they change the options for other non-cult Legions? (Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, Nightlords)

Kinda feeling glad that I put my LatD/Alpha Legion list on hold.

 

[The Son of Horus]

1. Go to your local GW or independent retailer... they've got store copies. While I can't tell you HOW to get one, there are also PDF copies floating around. I've had it for about a month and a half now. :|

2. No Veteran Skills. At all. Chosen can Infiltrate, Berserkers have Furious Charge... but other wise, that's IT. Nothing else has any sort of veteran ability, and in the case of Chosen and Berserkers, it's default, not an option.

3. Alpha Legion can't Infiltrate or take Cultists, since there aren't Veteran Skills options or a Cultist unit entry in the codex. It's all one army list-- there aren't any Legion specific rules, which, quite frankly, is kinda lame since they made people adhere to the fluff. No Apostle for the Word Bearers, although if you mark your Lord with the Mark of Tzeentch, it's essentially the same effect (4+ invulnerable). Raptors aren't 0-1 for anyone any longer, although they're nowhere near as cool as they are in the nearly obsolete codex, so Night Lords are pretty much unchanged once you get past them not having the option to take Stealth Adept (as again, no Veteran Skills.)

The reason Iron Warriors are a toughie to make with the new Codex is because Obliterators have moved from Elites to Heavy Support and aren't half as useful since they're a flat T4 and are five points more expensive now; Iron Warriors are purely a blurb in the fluff like every other Legion so there's no special rules for an Iron Warriors army (and thus, no fourth Heavy slot); and Dreadnoughts are Elites. There's no Basilisk in the Codex, although the Vindicator is available to anyone and in unlimited numbers (or, rather, 3, since it's a Heavy). Honestly, I'm having a similar problem with my Sons of Horus... I used the Alpha Legion rules so I could take Infiltrate for less since I didn't use marked units or daemons anyway, and I gave everyone infiltrate, so it seemed silly to pay the extra points... but my entire army is sort of built around that rapid strike from close in, and it's not possible anymore.

 

[Rahb]

Yea, that is kind of dissapointing. Well, will have me thinkin once I do see the new codex I guess.

 

[hephesto]

Lets just say that 'a friend' of mine has now also managed to get his hands on a pdf version of the codex already. So ask away guys, looks like I'll be able to answer all questions, though I won't be posting up to specific data......don't want to get in to (to much) trouble with GW :wink:


The main problem with the codex seems to be for people who have already build up a legion specific army. I'm not saying they majorly dropped the ball, it just looks like they thought the previous codex as...well to chaotic. Unfortunately the new one isn't much better (stupid eldar layout stuff), you'll be flipping pages back and forth until you go mad. Unit specific rules in the front, wargear before the army list, units in armylists, daemons before and after the list......
Or learn by heart where to find what, like me in 2 days. Well with some imagination and 'counts as' reasoning quite a lott can be salvaged. The major legion changes;


- Black Legion

Nothing really, can still take followers from all chaos powers....as can all legions now. Abaddon has gotten quite a boost, massive close combat potential! Big difference between Icon marines and cult marines though. Cult marines are the 'real' followers of the gods, whereas iconers just swear loyalty to them gaining a 'minor' benefit. Termies for example can buy an icon dedicated to a god or undivided for 1 fixed cost regardless of groupsize.

- Word Bearers

Dark apostle and accursed crozius are gone, but a bit of clever upgrade chosing can change this. Just say that that big ornate staff is a Tzeentch Icon and voila 4+ invul save and daemon weapon. Daemons are a bit more probematic, as all of them are now thrown into 2 categories. Greater and lesser daemons, and though both are pretty good they just don't cut it for word bearers. You don't want a vast horde of generic daemons around, in fact Nurglings and mounted daemonettes can't even be used anymore. But this should be fixed in a year....seriously fixed if the rumors are true.

- Night Lords

No more extra cover save, fast attack slot or those flying daemons. The 0-1 on Raptors has been removed for everybody and they can take Icons (same principle as marks)

- Alpha Legion

Loose infiltration skill and cultists, effectively making 1/3 of most AL players' armies useless. True shame as they now seem downgraded to either making a normal armies heavy on infiltration chosen (very good, but expensive unit) or as a generic csm unit with blue and green that only serves a fluff role in the army.

- Iron Warriors

Warsmith, servo-arm, 4th HS slot and basilisk are gone. And though the new list does make it possible to go heavy duty on HS it gets limited very quickly if you want to stick to fluff and stay away from FA and daemons. Almost forcing you to take chosen and termies (seperate unit now, very good for cheaper pointscost). As a result I'm now more or less forced to take spawn (FA and semi-daemonic) and convert them to cyber spawn, as well as take termies as I already have 40+ cms at the moment. Still I'll get this list to work even if it is the last thing I do.



- God legions

No more individual lists, restrictions, bonusses and/or wargear
Though a lord/sorceror can still take a mark gaining a god themed bonus, gaining access to a good specific daemon weapon bonus (1 cost, bonus depends on mark), a god specific magic spell as well as a god specific mount.



- Worldeaters....

Lotts of WE players are quite disappointed, though the new list does make WE still quite playable they have lost most of their flavor. No more chainaxes, bloodlust and they now walk side by side with Slaanesh worshippers....that just can't be right...can it ?
Kharn got stronger, lost a wound and has furious charge now.

- Emperor's Children

Still playable with all sonic weapons still in their, although the blast master seems a bit insane for +40 points. But that could just as well be my perspective. Doom siren is evil as hell though template AP3 (a lott of tough weapons seems suspiciously themed to kicking the **** out of SM or other CSM of course) Lucius is as effective as ever. No more Khorne rivalry....

- Deathguard

True grit is gone as are the other cool upgrades and relics, they now have feel no pain and blight grenades(no +1 attack to enemies charging them) as standard. Typhus is still kick ass, has 2 psychic powers, passes tests required for these automatically, scythe is daemon and force weapon (force weapon does require test to use), destroyer hive confers frag and blight grenades nothing more, fearless and feels no pain. No more Tzeentch rivalry.

- Thousand Sons

Well they definitely got the biggest boost, their mark is the best, their cult marines are the best and their psychic powers/daemon weapon are very good. Icons give 5+ invul or +1 to any invul a model already had. Cult marines are very tough; 4+ invul, slow and purposeful (only 1 dice if sorceror dies), fearless and inferno bolts (ap3). To be honest they might even be a bit cheap for their power (23), but in all fairness this is partially cancelled out by the obligated expensive sorceror and his required 1 psychic power. No more Nurgle rivalry... Ahriman knows 5 spells, can take 3 psychic tests a turn, us multiple firing spells, has inferno bolts, 4+ save and force weapon. Got more expensive though, 250 now

Still I think 1k sons will be dominating armies and tournaments near you in a not so distant periode of time :wink:

 

[The Son of Horus]

Well, GW can lick my (expunged by the holy orders of the Emperor's Inquisition), so you can ask me.


It might just be the fact that both local World Eaters players here are...erm... a bit shallow, but they're quite pleased with the change in Khorne Berserkers. WS5 means they're basically doing the same amount of damage in close combat through raw hits as they would with WS4 and a chainaxe, and for no change directly in points. Furious Charge is built in for the same cost that you'd pay for it in the current Codex though, so you're basically spending another three points per model for a superior fighting unit. No Blood Frenzy means you've got a bit too much control over Berserker units, imo... but the whole point of the Codex was to dumb it down for people like the local World Eaters players who are too dim to flip between an armoury page and the unit entry...

Emperor's Children are a bunch of punks, and always have been. The reason that the Blastmaster is 40 points is because it's able to put out a S8 AP3 small blast that causes pinning checks. Lash of Submission makes the enemy come to you, out of cover, and into charge range for your I5 Noise Marines, whose Aspiring Champions can use their doom sirens on to reduce to gibbering goo. Every time Lucius makes an armor save or an invulnerable save, the model that dealt the wound takes a S4 hit with no armor save allowed. The only thing that keeps that from being downright retarded, as opposed to just incredibly broken, is that the Lash of Torment reduces all enemy attacks against him by 1, to a minimum of 1. And Lucius has his power sword, which is sort of a moot point in the end... you almost WANT him to get pummelled...

True Grit is completely moot with the way the rules are set. Plague Marines may be I3 now, but they've still got a bolter, bolt pistol, and close combat weapon. It's still the same effect as True Grit, but you get a charge bonus and it's one fewer rule people who can't be bothered with subtle variations have to know. Have fun killing Plague Marines, though... of the cults, they're going to be the ones that are dominating everything since they're tactically flexible and obnoxiously hard to kill-- T4(5) with Feel No Pain means a Space Marine has to wound it on a 5+ with either bolter or chainsword, and then the Plague Marine has to subsequently fail its armour save and its Feel No Pain roll. T5 and Feel No Pain is better protection than Terminator Armour, and it's all rolled into a 23 point package. Oh, and they have krak grenades, too-- so even if you don't give the Aspiring Champion a power fist, that dreadnought that kills them on a 2+ to wound may be taking a couple glancing hits in return, so it's not like there's really even a safe way to go about neutralizing them. Their ONLY drawback is that they're I3, and it just downright doesn't matter since they're so hard to kill. Typhus, like Lucius and Abaddon, is kind of a waste of points unless you're sure he can kill about twice his points value. The odds of rolling a 1 and wounding the character with the daemon weapon are quite high-- in fact, in a single game, the probability is almost 1. And a 1 means not only do you not get to attack, but you take a wound with no armor save or invulnerable save allowed. And remember, a wounded independent character is worth half his victory points. Yes, he may have a force weapon manreaper, but you know... at the expense of handing your opponent 113 victory points with a probability of nearly 1, it's kind of not worth it... it's better to just take a terminator lord with a power weapon.

Here's why Thousand Sons are 23 points apiece. Against a solid 80% of the weapons in the game, your 4+ invulnerable save counts for a whole lot of nothing. AP3 is just as good as AP5 against quite a few things as well-- only against Space Marines are the Inferno Bolts valuable, and while there are still a disproportionate number of Space Marines running around tabletops, there are a drastically increasing number of Imperial Guard and Tau players.

Also, Thousand Sons are tactically inflexible, which makes them far less useful in a tournament setting particularly than their entry in the Codex would otherwise suggest. The sorcerer's inability to take any equipment is, to put it mildly, removing one of the squad's testicles, and giving them such specialized abilities (basically, Space Marine hunters) at the expense of tactical flexibility means that if there's nothing for them to specifically go after, they're not really doing anything useful for you, and they're a lot of points to be effectively a dead weight.

 

[hephesto]

Could be me but half the armies make heavy use of power armour or heavy armour, so thousand sons will do some serious damage there. Guessing you're not that happy with the new codex :wink:

But back on topic, any other questions?

 

[The Wraithlord]

Here's why Thousand Sons are 23 points apiece. Against a solid 80% of the weapons in the game, your 4+ invulnerable save counts for a whole lot of nothing. AP3 is just as good as AP5 against quite a few things as well-- only against Space Marines are the Inferno Bolts valuable, and while there are still a disproportionate number of Space Marines running around tabletops, there are a drastically increasing number of Imperial Guard and Tau players.

Also, Thousand Sons are tactically inflexible, which makes them far less useful in a tournament setting particularly than their entry in the Codex would otherwise suggest. The sorcerer's inability to take any equipment is, to put it mildly, removing one of the squad's testicles, and giving them such specialized abilities (basically, Space Marine hunters) at the expense of tactical flexibility means that if there's nothing for them to specifically go after, they're not really doing anything useful for you, and they're a lot of points to be effectively a dead weight.

I have to disagree with you here my friend. While they may not be as tactically flexible as some of the other cults, Tsons are still incredibly hard to kill thanks to that 4+ save vs most marine killer weapons (plasma, etc). And they are just as effective vs Tau as marines as Tau have a 4+ save vs normal bolters. Don't forget that the 4+ save applies to things like rending claws, power weapons, monstrous creature hits, etc. This is an incredibly huge advantage.

Add to that the fact that the sorcerer can cast 2 powers a turn or 1 and still use the force weapon and you have a character/MC killer without peer. Even vs a Toughness 7 Carnifex you only need to roll a single 6 to wound which is easier than you might think with the Warptime power. Pass a LD10 psychic test and that 5 Wound MC is a pile of rotten chitin. If you aren't a purist fluff nut, taking a Slaanesh sorc with the Lash power increases this advantage even more as you can theoretically pull enemy units into rapid fire range, vastly increasing the amount of damage you are doing vs an enemy unit. Then because of the S&P rule, you can also charge in afterwards. I have had several games using a nearly all Tzeentch marked and Thousand Son list (1 Slaanesh sorc is the exception) and haven't lost a game yet. One game was against a min/maxed marine list with all 5man las/plas squads and I won it hands down thanks to the Sons incredibly potent hitting power. And even vs thing like Nids who couldn't care less about the AP3 bolters, the ability to fire a full 24" while moving is not to be disregarded.

Another good example was a game I had vs Nids with several MC's in it. I had one unit of 10 Tsons get charged but a Tyrant with 3 guards and a T7 Carnifex. Under the current codex, my sons would have died horribly and quickly from the MC attacks which ignore armour. However, between said 4+ save and the force weapon I won the combat in 3 turns.

Tsons have a great deal to offer now I think.

 

[hephesto]

Totally agree...actually quite tempted to take some, but that would be out of character for Iron Warriors :wink:

 

[MarshallReinhart]

Any word on the daemonic codex that is suppose to supplement the chaos space marine one to some extent? Supposedly it will allow you to field a demonic army that is more powerful then the demons in the new codex.

 

[Jacobite]

No word yet.

But existing rumours say it will also bring back the god specific deamons plus possibly cult lists.

Doesn't mention it anywhere in the new Dex at all.

 

[Firewolf]

- Emperor's Children

Still playable with all sonic weapons still in their, although the blast master seems a bit insane for +40 points. But that could just as well be my perspective. Doom siren is evil as hell though template AP3 (a lott of tough weapons seems suspiciously themed to kicking the **** out of SM or other CSM of course) Lucius is as effective as ever. No more Khorne rivalry....

>> Only thing I dont agree with Heph, is the part about Lucius. He not as effective. His lash only gives 1 less attack for opponents now, whereas last, you could attack from 2'' away. Agree about weaons to, Emperors Children like nothing better than slapping other csm about.

 

[The Son of Horus]

No word yet.

But existing rumours say it will also bring back the god specific deamons plus possibly cult lists.

Doesn't mention it anywhere in the new Dex at all.

This probably doesn't mean much since Andy Chambers doesn't work for GW anymore, but I have a friend who knows him, and according to him, prior to Mr. Chambers leaving GW, the plan was to release the Chaos Codex, then make the Daemonic Codex, and release altogether five seperate suppliments that are more like the old Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolf sized books for Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, and Nurgle, as well as one focusing solely on the Sons of Horus / Black Legion. Making everything into a core codex with all the obvious options in it to make any army list previously available is the priority first, and once all the armies have those out, then they're going to simply expand on those core books. Apparently, it's some kind of marketing strategy.