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Dazed and confused.
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What's with all the bitching about the price?
It's not so much the price, but value for money. I have no problem paying €50 for a box of toy soldiers, but that €50 goes a lot further in other systems. In 40k it might buy me a Stormwolf, which would amount to about 15% of the points cost of an army. That same €50 would get me 2 boxes of Warlord Games excellent plastic US marines for Bolt Action, which could be used to make about 600 or 700 points of a 1000 point army. If GW offered even close to that kind of value I'd probably have one of each army.
 

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Something that I would truly like to see to address those price issues:

We have clip-together models for the base game - Dark Vengeance, Black Reach and so on. They're great quality sculpts and only sacrifice versatility (and even then, you can still do some stuff with them). They're also far cheaper to make than multi-part kits, as evidenced by the price that GW was able to put them out for.

So my idea would be for each battleforce to be clip-together models, for each army. You get two infantry squads, a vehicle/MC and a commander. Obviously new moulds and stuff are the significant cost for GW here, so they'd be rotated in with codex releases rather than all done at once. Clip together Rhino? Fire Warriors? Daemons? Yes please.

I know for a fact that if they were the same quality as DV they'd sell like hot cakes, at the right price point.
 

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Rattlehead
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With what's assumed the majority of the writers having played the game that long as well, it comes across that those who are writing those rules know nothing of game balance either.
@MidnightSun - in regards to Grey Knights - does it not bother you that you now have to pay for not only a new codex, but 2 other smaller books to use the same rules?
Wait, you're supposed to give money for Inquisition and Assassinorum?
 

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Having been playing 40k since 2nd Ed, you youngsters know *nothing* of game balance issues :wink:
Haha, the condescending veteran response, I wasn't expecting that! :laugh:

Seriously though, in second edition 40k didn't have the level of competition it does nowadays. There's almost nothing GW does anymore that another company doesn't do better, which is sad. For all it's faults I do love 40k.

This I have to whole heartedly agree with.

I am finding in hard to keep up with the break neck release speed GW are maintaining. But I love this. It means when I play somebody I don't know everything they have in their army. I am kept guessing which is all part of the enjoyment. I now want to take different lists to see what happens in certain circumstances or against different armies. I want to tray a data slate here or formation there. Woohoo for variety.

Another thing about 7th I have found I really like are the Maelstrom of war missions. I do think you need to be prepared to play them, as you need a mobile army to have a chance of getting a steady build up of VP's but its definitely fun to play.
Fair enough man, I'm glad you're enjoying it. I think having a large collection of models to draw upon would definitely make it a lot more enjoyable. Given how long I've played 40k, my collection of finished projects is pathetically small.

With what's assumed the majority of the writers having played the game that long as well, it comes across that those who are writing those rules know nothing of game balance either.
@MidnightSun - in regards to Grey Knights - does it not bother you that you now have to pay for not only a new codex, but 2 other smaller books to use the same rules?
I'd wager they just don't care. If not it means they still haven't realised plasma pistols aren't worth 15pts. No one can be that incompetent.

It's not so much the price, but value for money. I have no problem paying €50 for a box of toy soldiers, but that €50 goes a lot further in other systems. In 40k it might buy me a Stormwolf, which would amount to about 15% of the points cost of an army. That same €50 would get me 2 boxes of Warlord Games excellent plastic US marines for Bolt Action, which could be used to make about 600 or 700 points of a 1000 point army. If GW offered even close to that kind of value I'd probably have one of each army.
God forbid you play a horde army. Currently I can field most squads in X-wing, and yet for the cost of all that stuff I still couldn't even afford a 1500pt 40k SM army. If you include the cost of rules and codices I can't even get half way there, Ridiculous!


On a more positive note: I guess the thing I like most about GW is their models and kits. There are better models out there, but in terms of bits and variety the GW kits are great. Also some of their vehicles (especially the FW stuff) are pretty damn awesome. The Leman Russ still remains one of my favourite sci-fi tanks of all time.
 

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Rattlehead
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I'd wager they just don't care. If not it means they still haven't realised plasma pistols aren't worth 15pts. No one can be that incompetent.
I'm expecting that to change fairly soon, maybe with the next Marine book; Plasma Pistols cost 15pts because that's what they've always cost. Land Raiders and Terminators are overpriced as well, they're just left that way because that's how they've been forever (and for the old guard, yes, I know, not literally forever, but the history of 'modern' 40k). That's been broken with a couple of things recently, if I'm remembering rightly - the fiddling with the cost of Tacticals was a step, and the new 'different' Terminators (GKT and Chaos Terminators - things that aren't Storm Bolter/PFist with a Sergeant with Power Sword and the option for an Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer or Cyclone) being far cheaper are both hopefully signs of things to come.

God forbid you play a horde army. Currently I can field most squads in X-wing, and yet for the cost of all that stuff I still couldn't even afford a 1500pt 40k SM army. If you include the cost of rules and codices I can't even get half way there, Ridiculous!
I know it's highly subjective and I'm not knocking it, but I'll just say that I'd gladly pay for 40k miniatures over X-Wing toys.

Totally agree that horde armies are expensive as balls though - Nids can get kinda an okay deal with the snap-fit Gaunts, but Orks and Guard get shafted (unless you picked up a gorillion Black Reach Boyz, natch).
 

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Games Workshop deluding themselves into being a modeling company these days is as ludicrous as Nintendo pretending that pokemon games are designed for kids.
Funny your should say that, because pokemon games are kids games.

It just so happens that nintendo ensured that they were polished to the point where adults could enjoy playing them.

40k miniatures are models that you put together, paint, and make your own that just so happen to have rules so you can play games with them.

Coming into the hobby to be nothing more than a fucking power gamer whose only interested in playing games and winning kills the hobby for the ones who want to head to a GW store on a friday night and hang out for a few hours painting models and having a good time.

Of course you're just going to ignore everything I wrote and insult me.
 

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My point exactly. The game itself was designed for children initially - mainly to piggyback off the anime, comics and general hype. But recognising that there is an indepth battling and competitive scheme - usually by those who have played back since the halcyon days of red and blue, or maybe gold/silver if you were a late comer. I was on a flight out of Kandahar back to cyprus after 9 months in afghanistan, and I had 100 marines yelling 'go pikachu!' As i took on gary at cerulean town bridge.

Nintendo and gamefreak/games workshop acknowledge/refuse to acknowledge that people battling their pokemon/models that they have spent ages trying to catch them all/model and paint, and so back up that huge investment in time/money and effort/effort by providing fantastic, in depth and complex, but oddly balanced and well documented battle and training system with IV's, EV's, typing Combinations, status conditions/poorly written, poorly supported, badly balanced rules and a non existent competitive scene, while backed up with an excellent support of veteran players/none existant encouragement of veterans.

The ethos is the exact same. The execution is entirely different. Maybe that is down to size, but a company as successful as Nintendo providing high end retail capital expenses, GW can learn the most. It is almost contempt with which veterans are treated.

GW needs to stop hiring fans to write codexes and looking at those who actually play the game at that level. Similar to how DOTA and Call of Duty and other MLG Esports use such 'semiprofessionals' to shape the design and balance of their game.

I don't like being shit on by my own investment, and hence i refuse to support them.



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I know it's highly subjective and I'm not knocking it, but I'll just say that I'd gladly pay for 40k miniatures over X-Wing toys.
To be fair, there is truth to "You get what you pay for", when we are arguing about the quality of the models, and I think no one here is giving GW a hard time on their models (pricing structure maybe, but that is a separate issue here).

How ever most people who like x-wing are drawn to its rules and game play. It's a tight rule set where there are practically zero rule arguments during games (how often do you see something happen in a GW game where you have to "roll off"?), and is a fast paced game where it takes considerable less time to play than a 40k or fantasy game, and considerably less stuff to bring.

40k miniatures are models that you put together, paint, and make your own that just so happen to have rules so you can play games with them.

Coming into the hobby to be nothing more than a fucking power gamer whose only interested in playing games and winning kills the hobby for the ones who want to head to a GW store any night and hang out for a few hours painting models and having a good time.
First off, I live in the US where there are considerably less GW stores, and the ones that do exist have zero place to paint and "hang out", maybe its different in the UK and Europe - but everywhere else a GW is the equivalent to Gamestop. We do not really go to them to "hang out", we do not go to them and paint there, mainly because there is nowhere to paint anything, or limited space that is used for gaming.

So, just because GW - who I think we can all agree is on the top of the table top world - HAPPENS to have rules means that I cannot have expectations for the company regarding said rules? I cannot have expectations on how I view their GAME?

I find it when GW is the equivalent to the New York Yankees, Manchester United, The Ohio State Buckeyes, or whoever is the dominant team/player in the sport(s) you watch, to not have high expectations for the WHOLE of the group, not just one portion of the team. It is also a different level of expectations when people regard those teams than they do the New York Mets, Crystal Palace, Purdue, etc.

I find it rather shocking where lots of people tell me that I am a "a fucking power gamer whose only interested in playing games and winning" (I am grouped into the more asshole spot, but that is life) over the internet because I find the quality of THE GAME to be sub par, and not up to the standards that I have set on the game.

I am sorry, I do not collect vast amounts of orks, guardsmen, nids, CSM, SMs for the "hobby" I collect the vast amounts of GW models, because there IS A GAME with it, otherwise I would probably only own a fraction of what I do. I do not SPEND MONEY on models alone in the quantities that I have just to have them; I am sorry for the fact that I have higher expectations for a company to provide quality rules for a GAME that I play that uses their models, which does not match the quality of the models that I buy. I am sorry for being a CUSTOMER of your company. I am sorry for wanting to get a good deal on my time and effort. I am sorry for WANTING to spend MONEY on products that you have, but lacking usefulness in YOUR GAME that I PLAY. I am sorry for have expectations for you that others do not. I am sorry for being invested with you, I am sorry that the game that I love the most is now the most boring game I that I own.
 

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So tell me, since you can't paint at your local store only game, how many hours do you spend playing the game? And how many hours do you spend painting models?

I find it rather shocking where lots of people tell me that I am a "a fucking power gamer whose only interested in playing games and winning" (I am grouped into the more asshole spot, but that is life) over the internet because I find the quality of THE GAME to be sub par, and not up to the standards that I have set on the game.
Maybe the power gamer was uncalled for, but tell me are you really interested in the actual hobby or just playing games?

Right now I own a green tide of orks, small force of guard, 500 points of dark eldar. Random tau, eldar, chaos, space wolves, necrons and a few space marines.
I don't give a shit about starting a tau army.I couldn't care less about having a space marine army. I own the models because they look cool, and I enjoy spending the time building and painting them.

So tell me whose GW more interested in having as a customer. The guy who buys whatever because he likes the look of it or the guy looking to enter a tournament whose only going to get eldar, space marine, tau or dark eldar?
 

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So tell me whose GW more interested in having as a customer. The guy who buys whatever because he likes the look of it or the guy looking to enter a tournament whose only going to get eldar, space marine, tau or dark eldar?
I'll phrase that a little differently:

"So tell me whose [sic] GW more interested in having as a customer. The guy who buys whatever because he likes the look of it or the guy looking to enter a tournament whose [sic] only going to get a full 2000pt army and fully paint/base it (with GW paints, glue and flock) to max his tourney points every time a new "overpowered" codex comes out?"

Dunno about you, but I would have thought the latter guy would be a more attractive customer - given that he's rotating entire armies wholesale on a regular basis rather than just sticking to the Orks he's collected since 1995.

I'll also reply to the power gamer comment with the obligatory "game balance isn't just important for tournament players, it's essential to the enjoyment of casual players as well" response. To draw a parallel, it doesn't matter if you play a shooter casually, or as part of a clan/team for cash rewards - both players want to experience as few bugs as possible in their playthroughs.
 

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I'll phrase that a little differently:

"So tell me whose [sic] GW more interested in having as a customer. The guy who buys whatever because he likes the look of it or the guy looking to enter a tournament whose [sic] only going to get a full 2000pt army and fully paint/base it (with GW paints, glue and flock) to max his tourney points every time a new "overpowered" codex comes out?"

Dunno about you, but I would have thought the latter guy would be a more attractive customer - given that he's rotating entire armies wholesale on a regular basis rather than just sticking to the Orks he's collected since 1995.

I'll also reply to the power gamer comment with the obligatory "game balance isn't just important for tournament players, it's essential to the enjoyment of casual players as well" response. To draw a parallel, it doesn't matter if you play a shooter casually, or as part of a clan/team for cash rewards - both players want to experience as few bugs as possible in their playthroughs.
If GW cared about tournaments we'd have balance and an incentive for people to play something other than eldar tau or space marines.
 

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Heresy Online's Pet Furby
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I'll see your 2Ed, and raise you a Rogue Trader.... :good:
I've got a 1st edition of WHF in the loft, but then I'm an old fart as well.

I think there is too much emphasis on game balance. GW are not encouraging tournaments because that's not the game style they like.

I understand why people want balance but its not happened in the last 20 years so I don't see it changing anytime soon.
 

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I've got a 1st edition of WHF in the loft, but then I'm an old fart as well.
Ace :good: I've also still got my copies of Ere We Go! and Freebooterz somewhere :)
 

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If GW cared about tournaments we'd have balance and an incentive for people to play something other than eldar tau or space marines.
They don't care about tournaments. Which results in poor game balance. Which disappoints players. Which leads to lost revenue. Especially since games like Warmahordes and X-Wing with very tight rulesets have been gaining traction for years now. Which is why it's so insane that they don't seem to care. It just doesn't make financial sense.

If they actually just went to the biggest 5 tournament events in the world, took aside the top 5 finishers for each one, said "We'll pay £20 for you to list the top 10 problems you have with game balance in this edition so we can address them next time" then they'd get enough feedback from people who know what they're talking about to fuel the design team for months.

However they seem to be so... scared... of their own customers opinions that they don't bother, and so disinterested in community engagement that they've given up any attempt to cater to or run events for the broad demographics (Painters, Gamers, Fluff fans). Although at least Painters have Golden Demon and Fluff fans have BL Open Days.

Ultimately, I think the only way they're ever going to achieve anything approaching balance is to completely reinvent the game from the core mechanics up, similar to the 2nd/3rd Ed transition. Maybe move to a 2D6 or D10 system. Either that, or realise that "because it's always been like that" is NOT A VALID REASON TO EVER DO ANYTHING AT ALL, EVER.

I think there is too much emphasis on game balance. GW are not encouraging tournaments because that's not the game style they like.
Why are people always linking game balance to tournaments? They have nothing to do with each other. Balance is equally as important to casual gamers as tourney goers. Reducing the number of rules arguments and fundamentally broken units is in the best interests of everyone, whether that's 10yr old Timmy playing with his mates on the floor or someone at a top table competition with 500 attendees.
 

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I remember what happened when they let Jervis, a hardcore tournament winner at the time, write the Skaven army book. Result? A book that everyone took, because you could be sick with it. And so everyone complained, even the tourney players.

You want books written so tourney players approve? Then *every* book must be written like that, and virtually none of the writers play that way, and you alienate 80% of the actual player base.

I really like the current writing mentality, that the game is *fun* first, competitive second. It's a game, and is what you make of it. My nids suck in CC, yet still I fling them at it because I have fun doing so. Each to their own.

Oh, and from reading the books and knowing the writers, 3rd Ed 40k was the first edition with younger players specifically in mind...
 

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I'm not saying let them write the codex, just take their opinions on board. I don't think I'm alone in expressing the opinion that Jervis can go suck a mercury filled dildo dry either.
 
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