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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So, I've settled on Black Templars as my official chapter tactics, and have been liking the look of some of their unique units. However, Grimaldus raises some questions. He can take up to 5 cenobyte servitors that give a FnP bubble, but otherwise do nothing but soak wounds, it looks like. They have no wargear listed and no special rules or any information listed beyond a stat line and the FnP.

So, with Grimaldus as an IC, how do they work? Let's say I have him with all 5 cenobytes and a nearby tactical squad. Can he join the squad with the cenobytes? Would he have to abandon the cenobytes to join the tac squad? Can he even leave the cenobytes? If they prevent him from joining another squad, seems like they suck (especially for the cost!). But if he could join another squad with them, that might be too much (imagine a unit of assault terminators with 5 extra floating wounds!). Can cenobytes attack? THey have a WS and BS listed so it seems like they should be able to make CC attacks at least, since I seem to remember the rules saying that everything is assumed to have a CC weapon.

Basically, how the hell do these cenobytes work? I guess a completely unrelated question would be if Grimaldus is even worth it since he's a chaplain with no jump/bike/deep strike upgrade options...
 

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DA GOLDEN WAAAGH
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Just going off what i remember of the minitures themselves, they are a collection of sevetors bound to carry and hold a collection of relics and asortted other things. The models had no weapons so unless the rules state anything else they may just have their fists and thats all.

As to the joining other squads i believe this is a similar case to sevitor squads with heavy weapons and a techmarines or even the thunderfire cannon. The model themselves are technically independent characters but are bonded to the unit, unless all the sevitors die i don't think he can join anyone else.

Thats all i can think of.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Just going off what i remember of the minitures themselves, they are a collection of sevetors bound to carry and hold a collection of relics and asortted other things. The models had no weapons so unless the rules state anything else they may just have their fists and thats all.

As to the joining other squads i believe this is a similar case to sevitor squads with heavy weapons and a techmarines or even the thunderfire cannon. The model themselves are technically independent characters but are bonded to the unit, unless all the sevitors die i don't think he can join anyone else.

Thats all i can think of.
That's basically what I expected, I just can't understand why anyone would ever think they were worth that point cost. Especially since chaplains are best for giving their unit a boost. Seems like under almost any circumstance I'd be better off with a regular chaplain.

Thanks for the helpful reply!
 

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I've never seen him in action, but he strikes me as a force multiplier, and a difficult to use one at that. Looking at him on paper I'd expect him to be cheaper, but he does have an extra wound, IWND and a source of FNP for some serious potential staying power (still vulnerable to ID though, so don't stand around waving at Vindicators)

I don't think he's for smaller games, but to quote the 4chan tactics "He's not a frontline dueling character, but he works well if used with Helbrecht to make your Crusader Squads enter BEAST MODE."

I'd love to see more Black Templars around, as from my limited understanding they're capable of a very different style, and remember both the FNP and Zealot buffs are 6" radius for a 12" bubble, which while not the greatest, isn't something to sniff at.

Hopefully you have some friendly friends who'll let you proxy a normal chaplain and some other stuff so you can give his rules a go (try before you buy!). On paper and on the table are two very different things.

Edit: Just to actually mention the rules / original question (my bad, got carried away), I believe Battman's interpretation is correct, although in my opinion you have found one of the grey areas regarding RAW versus RAI.
 

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it's a bit late but....

i use Grimaldus in all my BT armies. if he has servitors they serve 2 purposes first being for the feel no pain (spread them out to cover as much of the army as possible) and secondly as a sacrifical pawn to get the rage and counter attack.

Grimaldus and his retinue join units together and leave units together.

i generally run Grimaldus with 3 servitors, 5 hammernators in a LRC that way one can be sacrificed to give the counter attack and rage
 

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I don't believe that's correct, as the Cenobyte servitors lack the independent character special rule.

There's a similar case in the Space Wolves codex regarding Fenrisian Wolves, and they go to all this trouble to clarify how it works:

FENRISIAN WOLVES AND CYBERWOLVES
Many Space Wolves characters have the option of taking Fenrisian Wolves and
Cyberwolves as upgrades. If taken, they and the character are treated as a single unit.
If a Space Wolves character has the Independent Character special rule, he and his wolves
(Fenrisian Wolves and/or Cyberwolves) are permitted to join other units, in which case
both the character and his wolves join the unit. If the Independent Character then leaves
the unit, all his surviving wolves also leave the unit, forming a separate unit with him.
If the Independent Character is killed whilst part of a unit, his surviving wolves are
thereafter part of that unit and cannot leave it; the Independent Character’s unit
has been completely destroyed for the purposes of any victory conditions.
If the Independent Character is killed while he is not joined to another unit, do not
remove any surviving wolves – in this case, the unit is not completely destroyed until all
the wolves have been removed as casualties as well. These wolves cannot join other units.
Another Independent Character can join the surviving wolves, but as they are not his
upgrades, he cannot take them with him if he then joins another unit.


Barring any similar exception for Grimaldus, I can't see attaching him to units with his servitors being valid, and whether or not he has to start the game attached to his servitors is again ambiguous.

Would be interested to hear more on this.
 

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I don't believe that's correct, as the Cenobyte servitors lack the independent character special rule.
Took the words right out of my mouth. He can leave the unit to join another thanks to the IC rule but the Cenobyte Servitors cannot join a unit as they lack the IC rule or a specific allowance like we see in C:SW. This is exactly the same as Techmarines and the squads of Servitors that they can take.

I'd wager it's also why both Grim and his Servitor's rules give friendly BT units within 6" their special rules and not models like with so many other area-of-benefit buffs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Hm, that could be nice still then to take them, since you could have him join a more useful unit for the zealot bonus and then have them follow to give FnP. I was thinking they would be a terrible choice since they cost a lot and would just prevent him from being useful.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
The Zealot bonus is also units in 6", you could have them all hanging out in a group.
Yeah, but 6" isn't that much, so it seems like most charges they're gonna run out of range. Since the bonus only applies the first round of CC it doesn't seem like it would be as effective (whereas FnP works any round of any combat so if they run out of range I can just move them up later and get the effect again).
 

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Yeah, but 6" isn't that much
6" is the bubble that BA Priests used to have for FnP, it worked pretty darn good. A Priest in a unit with other units flanking it all going for the same goals..makes your units have to work together, which is hell if your opponent has a ton of blast templates. Good to keep in mind that's a 12" diameter circle around the model(s) that give it off the effect though.

I'm really glad I started in on this conversation, because re-reading Zealot has made me note a few things.

a) If you have a unit that's gone to ground and someone with Zealot joins them the effects of G2G are immediately cancelled. Not gunna lie, this actually could have helped me with my Guard as allies to my Blood Angels in a game yesterday.

b) Zealot is not triggered by the charge. God damn it how did I miss that?! First round of each close combat is SO much better.

Score. My Death Company just got a touch better :grin:
 

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i beg to differ, the cenobytes are an optional upgrade for Grimaldus only. they're not a seperate unit as such, as you must have Grimaldus to take them.

if they had the IC rule then they would be able to run off and join other units.
 

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if they had the IC rule then they would be able to run off and join other units.
Very true. That would be very, very powerful.

However, as they apparently lack a space wolf-esque exception / addendum allowing them to join / leave units with Grimaldus, if Grimaldus takes one then he can't join diddly without leaving the servitors.

I've heard the argument that they're treat as wargear, but I can't find any mention of this, and they're clearly listed as infantry.
 

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i beg to differ, the cenobytes are an optional upgrade for Grimaldus only. they're not a seperate unit as such, as you must have Grimaldus to take them.
It's cool that your friends let you play this way, but it really isn't supported by any rules. The wording for adding Cenobyte Servitors to Grim's unit (since everything is a unit in this game) is identical to the wording for adding any other model to their unit in any other Codex. Check it out, you'll see it's the same. Does that mean that the other five models in my Tactical squad are 'upgrades' now as well and don't count as part of the unit?

Those Servitors are models in the game, and increase Grim's unit size for each one included. Take the names away and look at their unit type: you have one Independent Character and one to five Infantry models. Why can those Infantry, who are now a unit in the game that interacts with the gaming environment, now join a unit when no other unit but Independent Characters can do such a thing (barring of course something as specific as the SW stipulation @Rush Darling posted)? There are indeed models that you take and have no interaction with the game, such as the Perfidious Relic of the Unforgiven for Deathwing Knights, but these models are specifically stated to just be tokens in the game and not given stat lines and unit types by their Codex. These Servitors are not that type of model, and as such have to abide by the rules for their unit type of Infantry.
 

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Rattlehead
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I'd play it as they don't stop Grimaldus from joining a unit, because otherwise you'll never ever see Grimaldus (I mean, it's not like you're going to fall over Black Templars players anyway), but the wording which is I suppose what is in contention here certainly does read as they form a seperate unit and you can't then join a squad with them.
 

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I'd play it as they don't stop Grimaldus from joining a unit, because otherwise you'll never ever see Grimaldus
Straight up. Outside of tournament play (pfft anyway) I doubt I'd care much about it, but since this is a rules thread I felt compelled.

I faced a Command Squad the other day whose Apothecary had a grav gun. In no way do I agree the wording of the Codex allows it, but did it really change anything about the game? Nope. Did my opponent have fun fielding the unit he built up and painted? Absolutely.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I'd play it as they don't stop Grimaldus from joining a unit, because otherwise you'll never ever see Grimaldus (I mean, it's not like you're going to fall over Black Templars players anyway), but the wording which is I suppose what is in contention here certainly does read as they form a seperate unit and you can't then join a squad with them.
That was my thought, because the cost is way too high for models that can't attack (especially who go with an hq that is only useful for buffing CC attackers). But I think everyone is right that the RAW don't allow for it. I'm thinking now about maybe grabbing him anyway, then just putting the servitors in a razorback for the bubble and leaving Grimaldus to join someone else. That might not be worth it but I want to try it out.
 

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Agreed, I was just lawyering for the sake of the RAW discussion, would be more than happy to play it as attachable, especially given the SW thing.

I think most folks are happy to play most things as long as it fits the fluff, or sounds hilarious, or even downright horrible as a challenge. Just be prepared to meet that guy, or more commonly, guys like myself who'll just blame your well-earned victory on your very clearly broken rules exploit ^^ (It's never my fault that I've lost, right? right?)

I am very curious as to how he'd affect various units in the game, so please drop a tactica article when you've had a play and let us know how it goes.

First thought being honour guard in a crusader, but I'm terrible at death stars, so I'll just get back in my (metal) box xD
 
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