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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So I recently re read the killing ground, the ultramarine novel that had a bit of action from the grey knights alongside ultramarines.

One of the lines stuck out to me I remember it but I forgot it's significance Uriel Ventris and Pasanius had to fight a grey knight and lose in order to prove they were untainted as only a servant of chaos could defeat one.

If that was the case then how could Grimnar and his retinue succeed in killing A grey knight grand master and four justicar's and yet somehow not be tainted.

Personally I'm thinking that there's several ways that this could go.

The grey knights knew that Ventris and Pasanius were untainted, he also knew that he could beat both of them if he subtlety used his psychic powers to push the combat in his favor. Essentially the entire combat was smoke and mirrors for the benefit of the governor and as a means to remind the humans that astartes are far superior to them. As it stood they were over stepping their bounds.

McNeil put in a line that basically doomed the wolves, this I find hard to believe from the guy who made the Ultramarine's likeable again.

The wolves are just that badass and as the emperors executioners they have the ability to kill any astartes.

Finally there's my personal favorite theory.

The grey knights knew that the inquistion crossed a line with the months of shame. They are unable to vocally go against them due to their ties but they never agreeded with what they were doing. Especially since they broke a parlay. So the grand master and the justicars allowed themselves to be killed. Hoping that it would be enough for the inquisitor to see sense and stop before things get worse.

Thoughts?
 

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They were all unarmed in that fight as I recall, so yes, the grey knight being a psyker gave him every advantage from the start. Uriel and Pasanius would have had to be using chaos spawned powers to match him or defeat him.

The confrontation with the Space Wolves was entirely different, everyone was armed and the grey knights psychic abilities probably counted for less. I'm not all that familiar with the story, but didn't the space wolves strike first?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
They were all unarmed in that fight as I recall, so yes, the grey knight being a psyker gave him every advantage from the start. Uriel and Pasanius would have had to be using chaos spawned powers to match him or defeat him.

The confrontation with the Space Wolves was entirely different, everyone was armed and the grey knights psychic abilities probably counted for less. I'm not all that familiar with the story, but didn't the space wolves strike first?
The scene is in the emperors gift, as I recall there's Grimnar and five wolf guard terminators and I think it's fifty Grey knights, everyone was armed and armored. Everything about the scene screams either grimnar caught him off guard or he let himself be killed.
 

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It's definitely artistic liscence on the part of McNeill. GKs are the shit, but unless it's against demons they are not so all conquering that a SM captain and veteran Sgt shouldn't put him away fairly easily. I thought it was a stupid set piece when I read it first, but now I find it absolutely fucking ridiculous. It completely diminishes the power of non GK SMs, and way over hypes the power of GKs.

Also, does it mean if one GK defeats another while sparring, that the victor is tainted? Just a plain dumb piece of writing.
 

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I agree about the Ultramarines series being shit. McNeill sacrifices the integrity of many chapters, legions, and forces to make others look completely awesome.

I would say one thing about this though, the Wolves have demonstrated a few times they could hold back larger and stronger forces. Dan Abnett's description of what the Wolves were allowed to be created for echoes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I agree about the Ultramarines series being shit. McNeill sacrifices the integrity of many chapters, legions, and forces to make others look completely awesome.

I would say one thing about this though, the Wolves have demonstrated a few times they could hold back larger and stronger forces. Dan Abnett's description of what the Wolves were allowed to be created for echoes.
Until I read the ultramarine series I refused to go anywhere near codex space marines because of the ultramarines wank that was in it.

The ultramarines series humanized them and actually made them into a likeable chapter complete with flaws.
 

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The scene is in the emperors gift, as I recall there's Grimnar and five wolf guard terminators and I think it's fifty Grey knights, everyone was armed and armored. Everything about the scene screams either grimnar caught him off guard or he let himself be killed.
Behold:

Lord Joros of the Eighth Brotherhood had ruled with a cautiously ambitious hand for seventy years. He was respected by those of us in his brotherhood, though scarcely loved; a warrior admired but rarely emulated.
The list of his deeds was more impressive than his unapproachable exterior might suggest. While he lacked a great many commendations for command, as a duellist and a front-line fighter, it was acknowledged across the order that few could match his reputation and skills with two falchion blades.

A vital aspect in any blademaster’s repertoire is the ability to read an opponent’s movements, and react with greater speed than they can act in the first place. Joros was a master, and his reflexes were renowned. And yet, his blades had scarcely cleared his scabbards when Logan Grimnar’s axe of blackened steel and burnished gold cleaved into our Grand Master’s breastplate and throat, ending a worthy, respectable life of service with a single crunching chop.

Joros went down, felled by the axe blow and dead before he hit the ground. The Great Wolf’s axe – named Morkai after some heathen Fenrisian superstition about a god guarding the Halls of the Dead – ripped back out, blood sizzling on its active metal surface. In the time it had taken me to look back from Rawthroat to his liege lord, my own Grand Master was slain. That should explain, at least partially, how quickly the High King of Fenris moved.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks, it at least proves that he didn't die without trying to fight.

Now the question remains did he make a real effort to draw and fight or was it a show because he knew where it was going to head?

I don't want to ignore McNeil's work because of a sentence, so I'm going to go with that particular knight stretching the truth for that governors benefit.

They're many things but when it comes down to it they're still astartes. Nothing more.
 

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Cruel Commissar
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Logan Grimnar struck when at a parlay then teleported away. That's not meeting someone in a honorable duel thats like one of you saying I surrender to me and then you kill me coming to me to surrender.

As for the background the Grey Knights had destroyed one or more SW-vessels after the First War of Armageddon so Grimnar was naturally not a very happy man as all he wanted to talk about during the parlay was who ordered the shots fired. He got his answer, struck then teleported away, and if memory serves he came alone.
 

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They're many things but when it comes down to it they're still astartes. Nothing more.
I think the Emperor would disagree with you on the 'nothing more' part... and a whole bunch of Greater Daemons who have been banished back to the Warp :laugh:
 

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I think the Emperor would disagree with you on the 'nothing more' part... and a whole bunch of Greater Daemons who have been banished back to the Warp :laugh:
The Emperor barely knew they existed, and considering they were Malcador's creation, the Emperor shouldn't get any credit for them.

The only area in which they excel over normal SMs is when fighting demons. That said, normal marines aren't too shabby at that either. There is no evidence that man for man they are any better, stronger or faster than your common-or-garden Ultramarine or Imperial Fist.
 

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Read The Emperor's Gift. He took a WG retinue with him.
EDIT: I do not stand corrected. We were referring to two different events. You were referring to when LG slayed Inquisitor Lord Kysnaros. i were referring to when he slayed GK Grand Master Joros. Two different occasions.
 

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I do not stand corrected. We were referring to two different events. You were referring to when LG slayed Inquisitor Lord Kysnaros. i were referring to when he slayed GK Grand Master Joros. Two different occasions.
You do stand corrected.

"Grimnar smiled, showing old teeth in a nasty grin. ‘You violated an armistice, killed thousands of my Chapter’s servants, and now name us oathbreakers when you – as always – fired first.’
He looked back over his shoulder to his three remaining Wolf Guard. ‘This is why we so rarely speak to outlanders, eh? No manners.’"

This is when the armistice was betrayed and when Logan slew Joros.
 

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You do stand corrected.

"Grimnar smiled, showing old teeth in a nasty grin. ‘You violated an armistice, killed thousands of my Chapter’s servants, and now name us oathbreakers when you – as always – fired first.’
He looked back over his shoulder to his three remaining Wolf Guard. ‘This is why we so rarely speak to outlanders, eh? No manners.’"

This is when the armistice was betrayed and when Logan slew Joros.
:good::goodpost:
 
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