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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Some musings of mine here: I have no idea of the answers so I'd appreciate if someone can help?

Why does the Chapter limit of 1000 apply to these 3 Chapters as it would make sense for it not to since they are specialist formations who work with the Inquisition? In the same way that the Black Templars are allowed more than 1000, why can't these 3 Chapters expand their size to split it around the Galaxy.

Lexicanum and Headhunted Short Story states that the Exorcists geneseed is related to the Grey Knights as successors? Do we think that the Red Hunters are also successors in the same way?
 

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AFAIK, the Black Templars aren't allowed to have more than 1000 Marines, it's just Helbrecht being a troll counting on the inefficiency of Imperial control.
 

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I've always thought the same about the GK since most chapters don't even know of their existence so they wouldn't raise a fuss about them having more than 1K.
 

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In the same way that the Black Templars are allowed more than 1000,
The Black Templars are "allowed" the extra men because of three reasons:

1. Their fanatical loyalty to the Emperor and the Imperium has never been in question. I can not recall of a single instance of a Black Templar turning on the Imperium.

2. They're spread out. They're not like the Astral Claws were, a single devastating force of several thousand marines. They're literally spread across the entire galaxy.

3. They are such a potent force that if the Black Templars refused to reduce their ranks, the ensuing military conflict would wreck a large swathe of the Imperium.

In short, it's better to let sleeping dies lie.

I've always thought the same about the GK since most chapters don't even know of their existence so they wouldn't raise a fuss about them having more than 1K.
I always figured the Grey Knights simply can not get over 1000 marines due to attrition. Think about it:

They require psykers. That's 1/1,000,000 people already.

Then they have to make the trip back to Terra on the blackships (or some other way) without being euthanized along the way.

Then they need psykers powerful enough to be useful.

Then psykers mentally strong enough to resist the temptation of the Warp.

Then they have to pass the requirements to be a regular space marine.

Then the requirements to pass the Libarius's tests.

Then combine this with the horrible attrition they must suffer since the Grey Knights are sent to the most worse (literally) hell holes in the Imperium to fight the most dangerous of wars.

There's no down time between wars to recoop loses. They have to defend the entire breadth of the Imperium of Man from daemonic incursions.
 

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I always figured the Grey Knights simply can not get over 1000 marines due to attrition. Think about it:

They require psykers. That's 1/1,000,000 people already.

Then they have to make the trip back to Terra on the blackships (or some other way) without being euthanized along the way.

Then they need psykers powerful enough to be useful.

Then psykers mentally strong enough to resist the temptation of the Warp.

Then they have to pass the requirements to be a regular space marine.

Then the requirements to pass the Libarius's tests.

Then combine this with the horrible attrition they must suffer since the Grey Knights are sent to the most worse (literally) hell holes in the Imperium to fight the most dangerous of wars.

There's no down time between wars to recoop loses. They have to defend the entire breadth of the Imperium of Man from daemonic incursions.
You underestimate the vastness of the Imperium and its population.

Also by your logic, it would be hard to maintain a 1K figure yet it's done.
 

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You underestimate the vastness of the Imperium and its population.
I'm not, really.

One person in a million is a psyker.

Only one psyker in a million that makes it to Titan actually becomes a Grey Knight (per The Emperor's Gift).

That's a million million...or 1,000,000,000,000. Or out a trillion souls, we see one Grey Knight.

But the Imperium is vast, as you say. There is, after all, 32,380 Hive worlds out there. Let's say there's 40 billion people, on average, on each Hiveworld. 1,295,200,000,000,000. Or 1.295 quadtrillion people. Enough for 1295 Grey Knights.

Ah, but there are other worlds. Around 970,000 more worlds. There's some bigger worlds, some smaller worlds, but let's say they average a billion each.

970,000,000,000,000. Or 970 trillion. Enough for 970 Grey Knights.

So we have a good number of 2265 Grey Knights in the Imperium! Wonderful.

Except half of them have the annoying feature of being female. So halve that.

So we have around 1132 Grey Knights. Wonderful. Enough for a Chapter (and more!) every lifespan, so about 70 years (give or take). Sufficient to replace loses, right?

Only problem is that this assumption runs that EVERY psyker is caught by the Inquisition in time (mostly pre-pubsecent boys) AND said boy-child makes it to Titan while still young enough to make the risk of implantation worth it.

This also assumes that every psyker is fit enough, both mentally and physically, to even be considered as a aspirant.

This also assumes EVERY psyker is sent to be tested. This means no psykers for the other bodies of the Imperium. The Emperor's Gift sheds some light on those that fail to become Grey Knights:

"The rest are fated to end their lives as servitors, Chapter serfs, or more likely as names in the Archives of Failure."

So, no, I am not underestimating the size of the Imperium (if anything, I'm probably giving a higher-end figure).

And, yes, I do believe it would be difficult to maintain a 1000-man strength. Even if you disagree with my numbers, I'd guess with how haphazard psyker detection is in the Imperium, and the vaugeries of the Warp slowing transit to Titan, it'd probably take a population size maybe a couple hundred times the numbers I came up with to, realistically, support the Grey Knights.
 

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it's just Helbrecht being a troll counting on the inefficiency of Imperial control.
No, not really. I think it would be more the High Lords not caring, and also needing to maintian at least one standing Legion should everything go to shit.

I always figured the Grey Knights simply can not get over 1000 marines due to attrition. Think about it:
Wrong, they have well over 1,000 Marines. Lexicanum states they have roughly 5k-6k Marines total, and probably more. Also they have at least 3 currently standing Crusades, so we kow they are packing well over 1,000. Truth be told each Crusade becomes it's own Chapter, and is responsible for fullfilling the responsibilities of the Codex Astartes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
The Black Templars are "allowed" the extra men because of three reasons:

1. Their fanatical loyalty to the Emperor and the Imperium has never been in question. I can not recall of a single instance of a Black Templar turning on the Imperium.
All these apply to the Red Hunters and and probably to the Exorcists as well

2. They're spread out. They're not like the Astral Claws were, a single devastating force of several thousand marines. They're literally spread across the entire galaxy.
The Grey Knights are certainly spread out, not sure about the Red Hunters or Exorcists. It would make sense for them to be spread out as well.

3. They are such a potent force that if the Black Templars refused to reduce their ranks, the ensuing military conflict would wreck a large swathe of the Imperium.
The Grey Knights, Red Hunters and Exorcists are as potent IMO considering they have the powers of an Astartes Chapter plus the backing of the Inquisition.

In short, it's better to let sleeping dies lie.
I agree its a good idea not to reduce the Black Templars, but it would be a better idea if other Chapters were allowed to expand in the same way.

I agree with your thoughts on how rare the psykers are but like Malus said, there seem to be enough to keep the Grey Knights up to strength and the laws of probability state there will be enough.

You underestimate the vastness of the Imperium and its population.

Also by your logic, it would be hard to maintain a 1K figure yet it's done.
No, not really. I think it would be more the High Lords not caring, and also needing to maintian at least one standing Legion should everything go to shit.
This makes sense :)

Wrong, they have well over 1,000 Marines. Lexicanum states they have roughly 5k-6k Marines total, and probably more. Also they have at least 3 currently standing Crusades, so we kow they are packing well over 1,000. Truth be told each Crusade becomes it's own Chapter, and is responsible for fullfilling the responsibilities of the Codex Astartes.
I'm not trying to argue but I've read Lexicanum and can't find this particular bit of info, please can you point me in the right direction?
 

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No, not really. I think it would be more the High Lords not caring, and also needing to maintian at least one standing Legion should everything go to shit.
The Templars aren't even vaguely close to Legion strength, they number around several chapters. The High Lords could easily call the Ultramarines and all of their successors who are still fiercely loyal to their parent Legion, and number far more than the Templars could ever hope to see.

I'll agree with you somewhat on the High Lords not caring, but more for the reasons hailen said, it would be far more trouble than it's worth, be detrimental to the Imperium and they are simply so spread out that it could never be proved either way.

Wrong, they have well over 1,000 Marines. Lexicanum states they have roughly 5k-6k Marines total, and probably more. Also they have at least 3 currently standing Crusades, so we kow they are packing well over 1,000. Truth be told each Crusade becomes it's own Chapter, and is responsible for fullfilling the responsibilities of the Codex Astartes.
Completely incorrect on almost every single count. I can't see this particular bit of info on Lex either, in actual fact, Lex puts their numbers at around 1000, which is in line with what Codex: Grey Knights says. Nothing you said about the Crusades is correct either, where on earth did you figure each Crusade packs 1000? And what 3 crusades are these, where are the sources for this? The First War for Armageddon saw one hundred and nine Knights deployed, which was an enormous amount for them to field, and that was to defeat Angron. So yeah, would love to see where you're getting your information from, because it is quite frankly. Wrong.
 

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There's no reason to have a 5000-brother strong Red Hunters Chapter. If the Inquisition feels they need, say, 5000 marines at their beck and call, why not Found 5 Chapters for that purpose? You have 5000 marines AND follow the Codex limit of 1000 AND have that lovely bonus of not putting all your eggs in one basket (you know, half the reason the Codex came about, right?)

Completely incorrect on almost every single count.
My best guess is that he misread and thought I said "Black Templar" instead of "Grey Knight" despite, you know, the quote he took from my post explictly says "Grey Knights".
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
There's no reason to have a 5000-brother strong Red Hunters Chapter. If the Inquisition feels they need, say, 5000 marines at their beck and call, why not Found 5 Chapters for that purpose? You have 5000 marines AND follow the Codex limit of 1000 AND have that lovely bonus of not putting all your eggs in one basket (you know, half the reason the Codex came about, right?)
Good point, although it leads me to ask why not create multiple Grey Knight successors and multiple Exorcists successors?
 

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The attrition rate for Grey Knights is abysmally high. Check the previous page for some of my numbers.

And IF the Exorcists are a Grey Knight successor, there you have it.

And if not...

Well, I personally do not know enough about the Exorcists, so I can not give a full answer. Perhaps the risk of having multiple Chapters at the risk of Daemonic possession is too great? Maybe there are more Exorcists-esque Chapters out there, but we have yet to see them in the fluff?
 

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Wouldn't a Grey Knights successor chapter, if such existed, benefit from the +1 nature of thier geneseed? I'm not even thinking about the psyker aspect, but how it makes the GKs better, faster, stronger? McNiell has his famous unarmed fight scene between one GK and two Ultramarines, with the GK stating that only through demonic posession could have even both of the UMs bested him. I don't recall ADB making a direct comparison, but certainly suggests the GKs on Armageddon have the toughest fight in the show.
 

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It's possibly due to their intense training which has been stated as being much more thorough and harsh than regular chapters rather than their gene-seed (or at least it's not completely due to their gene-seed).
 
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