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I've also seen on a lot of forums how "all models getting [insert special grenade] is stupid and useless now"
The only grenade being rightfully declared dead is the Krak. Kraks are only S6. The Krak is an anti-vehicle grenade that has always been balanced to be only truly dangerous to (light) vehicles in larger numbers, giving infantry a chance to mob tanks that got too close and a very, very, very slim one to fight back against a Walker. A single Krak just won't achieve either of those purposes.

Note how you can usually only get ONE Melta bomb on a squad, and have to equip the entire squad with Kraks at 1 pt/model (current Astra Militarum cost) which usually works out to equal or higher cost for the Kraks. In older codices, the cost is higher (Witch Hunters used to get them at 2pts/model).

So yes, Kraks are now stupid and useless. Frags you weren't using in melee anyway, Melta Bombs still work just fine for almost everyone as they only had one in a unit (except those poor Orky Tankbustas... Poor guys had enough issues as it was). Haywires, in all honesty, probably needed a bit of a nerf but I suppose that only really became obvious when cheap Pathfinder units started semi-reliably Glancing 300-400 point Imperial Knights to death.
 
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The only grenade being rightfully declared dead is the Krak. Kraks are only S6. The Krak is an anti-vehicle grenade that has always been balanced to be only truly dangerous to (light) vehicles in larger numbers, giving infantry a chance to mob tanks that got too close and a very, very, very slim one to fight back against a Walker. A single Krak just won't achieve either of those purposes.



Note how you can usually only get ONE Melta bomb on a squad, and have to equip the entire squad with Kraks at 1 pt/model (current Astra Militarum cost) which usually works out to equal or higher cost for the Kraks. In older codices, the cost is higher (Witch Hunters used to get them at 2pts/model).

So yes, Kraks are now stupid and useless. Frags you weren't using in melee anyway, Melta Bombs still work just fine for almost everyone as they only had one in a unit (except those poor Orky Tankbustas... Poor guys had enough issues as it was). Haywires, in all honesty, probably needed a bit of a nerf but I suppose that only really became obvious when cheap Pathfinder units started semi-reliably Glancing 300-400 point Imperial Knights to death.
Good post, put that on the facebook page for the grenades FAQ!
 

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The reason I don't consider this a nerf to anyone, is that I've been playing 1 grenade in the assault the entire time.

I've also seen on a lot of forums how "all models getting [insert special grenade] is stupid and useless now" Ignoring my above statement that I think it's been that way all of 7th edition: It's still nice to have more than one model that can plant the melta bomb or toss the krak grenade. I'd rather throw 1 haywire grenade or plant one melta bomb as long as something is alive in the unit, rather than have to protect the ball carrier. Of course points are a consideration, but just throwing that counter point at it.
You might not consider it a nerf, but I, and a huge amount of players who relied on meta bombs to take down tough targets like knights certainly do.
Orks had to sacrifice 3 attacks on the charge for one single meta bomb each, under the meta bomb rules it is an attack per model, and that seemed fair and reasonable for a specialised unit like the bustas. There is no ranged profile for a melta bomb, its a bomb not a grenade, itll never be thrown but now it's been lumped in with krak grenade abuse, it's how I always played it, how everyone in my local club and store played it, and how it was played at the tournaments I attended.
It's not like it was an easy thing to do, to maneuver a 5-10 man unit across the battlefield in a flimsy truck, leap out and successfully assault a Knight. Pulling that off meant you deserved to take that knight to the ground.
 

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Good post, put that on the facebook page for the grenades FAQ!
No Facebook account, and I'm not going to make one after succesfully avoiding it for years :) Feel free to add it there.

Point of math in addition because of @R_Squared going 'Krak abuse':

Even the lowliest transport has AV10 in the back. A squad armed with Krak grenades needs a 3+ to hit (Vehicles count as WS1) and then a 4+ added to the Krak's S6, so only using a single of these anti-vehicle grenades you have a 2 in 3 chance of not doing anything at all.

It gets worse when attacking a Walker, attacking something like a Dreadnought which has equal (or higher) WS that can keep its higher Front armour to you. Your chances with a Guardsman or Space Marine squad of glancing a Dreadnought with a Krak are a mere 1 in 12 (4+ to hit, then 6+ to get the Krak through AV12) and you can't do more than that.

I have NO idea how using every model's Krak grenade in CC would count as abuse. These things are supposed to make infantry dangerous to light vehicles, and that's only ever going to happen by using a large number of the things.


Math on Haywire grenades and Imperial Knights, aka why I suspect this is all their fault:
If allowed to use every model, both Tau Pathfinders and the more expensive Eldar's Swooping Hawks will hit an Imperial Knight on a 4+ (SH Exarch on a 3+, but ignore him), then have a 2/3rd chance to Glance plus a 1/6 chance to Penetrate. Maxed out Squads (10 members) are thus likely to take most of the Hull Points off an Imperial Knight, but need a bit of luck to actually kill it in one round (Especially since Overwatch may cause losses, and the Pathfinders go AFTER the Knight's regular attacks).

With the mobility of both, Pathfinders having Scout and Swooping Hawks being Jump Infantry, this is probably the most cost-effective and reliable way to do a lot of damage to an Imperial Knight quickly.
 

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Krak abuse was probably a bit strong, in my defence I am pretty pissed off about the really very solid nerf that we've suffered, yet again.

As to points cost, one truck full of 10x tankbustas and a nob with no bomb squigs and a reinforced ram?
193 points.

For a unit as fragile, but as lethal as it was, that was well worth it. You could strip off a couple of Hull with some lucky shooting on the way in, and if you weren't exploded and mob ruled to death, you could wreck face very effectively.

Usually though it's a 5 man mob, no nob in a truck, for about 100 points, but if you got hit by literally anything from bolters upwards, the unit is gone.

I tended to run my bust as in 2 mobs of 10, with squigs, in the slightly more resilient gunwagon for about 150 points a go. 2 of those would most likely take on a knight, but I would lose at least one wagon and most likely a large wedge of Boyz.
Lots of people would run 3 trucks with a bare mob of 5 bustas in each, so roughly 300 points devoted to taking on heavy and super heavy machinery and tough stuff.

Not exactly the most OP units in the game.
 

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You can still use 2 krak grenades on most turns, so that's something. And, they work against monstrous creatures, so that's also a thing.

Of the FAQ out so far, the two little tidbits of clarifications that seemingly hurt the weakest armies still have some hope of errata when their codex gets an FAQ. Maybe Orks should be able to use all of their grenades because orks, and maybe Dark Eldar should be able to shoot from a transport that jinks at full BS because Dark Legolas.

Edit: Don't hold your breath on those hopes though.
 

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^ what's the rough estimate points cost for these Knight popping units?
Haywire Melee (now nerfed to hell):
Full Pathfinder squad plus grenades: 130 points (variety of other upgrades available, season to taste)
Full Swooping Hawks squad: 160
While not extremely cheap, note both of these have a number of other uses they can be put to, you're more likely to see/use two smaller squads.
Curious note: The Swooping Hawks can still (each!) make S4AP4 Haywire attacks on flying stuff they move over. They're trained to kill Flyers that way with their Haywire grenades... and it seems most of them now forget they have them OUTSIDE the Movement phase. :laugh:

Melta bomb melee (also nerfed to hell)
Tankbusta Squad - see @R_Squared 's post

Point of order, if you want to gib an Imperial Knight, the Sororitas still have you covered.
Repentia Squad - 155 points. Their 9 Eviscerators (Think two-handed power fist) with 2 attacks each (3 on the charge) WILL see the job done. They do not, however, have the mobility of the above units to get near the Knight - no Scout SR, no Jump packs, and no open-topped (or Assault-Ramped) transports.
 

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Point of order, if you want to gib an Imperial Knight, the Sororitas still have you covered.
Blood Angels do it nice with meltaguns in a Drop Pod. It's one of the only 'competitive' things the Codex offers: 135 points for 4x melta shots provided you can disembark with your sergeant within 3" for the shorter range of inferno pistols. I like to spread them out against two armour facings on a Knight; it rarely kills them but it puts the hurt on pretty reliably.

It's 2016 and people still think that Imperial Knights are hard to kill?
Thanks to the above combined with the typical amount of melta/lascannons in my army I've never had an issue but maybe that's because I play marines, eh? I mean...they're the most ill-equipped marines, but they're still marines.
 

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Other than a few occasions whereupon I've had truly obscene luck (get charged by an Invisible Chaos Knight and kill it without taking any damage), my Imperial Knight tends to get killed on turn 2 or 3. That's a big part of why it's valuable, of course; it's a big old fire magnet and it moves so quickly you can't really ignore it. Sure, AV13/12/12 4++ 6HP looks daunting, but chipping hull points off of AV13 isn't really very hard, and 6HP evaporates *really* quickly. A Flyrant that gets a not-particularly-lucky double 6 to penetrate has taken 33% of its' health off in one pass. One dude with a Melta Bomb can do half the job in one swing. Knights really love it when you put a load of anti-tank guns in one facing and try to brute force them. They take most of their damage from one dude with a Meltagun standing in side armour; if you haven't got the Ion Shield up on that facing, you're 2 Chimeras strapped together without the cover save, and that's actually pretty incredibly fragile for your 400pts.
 

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Yeah, I don't exactly have a problem with it either - Meltaguns and Exorcists do the job - but there's apparently a large amount of salt in some circles about Pathfinders with Haywire grenades.
]
Might be because it's way outside of what people expect from them? I mean, the Eldar specialists doing horrible things to your units is pretty much expected :D
 

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I'll admit there's something horribly wrong with the idea that charging Tau could ever be the wrong course of action. There's excessive proliferation of EMP grenades among the normal Fire Warriors. It's not JUST Pathfinders after all - those are just most likely to end up charging you early on.

That having been said, this is a problem with the Tau Codex balance - it should NOT be solved by using the shotgun approach of a FAQ on a related rule that nerfs a great many other units that were perfectly fine.
 

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It's 2016 and people still think that Imperial Knights are hard to kill?

What a time to be alive.
If you've ever played orks, you wouldn't be so glib.
But you're right, I could bring a stompa, it's only 700 points, what the hell, I could squeeze 2 into 1850 points, no trouble killing knights then.
 

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If you've ever played orks, you wouldn't be so glib.
But you're right, I could bring a stompa, it's only 700 points, what the hell, I could squeeze 2 into 1850 points, no trouble killing knights then.
Army men Games Toy Team


I kicked ass and took names with my Orks for years; my Power Klaws were the bane of Imperial Knights the galaxy over.

And Buzzgob's Stompa is almost cheaper than a Knight Crusader but is strictly better in basically every way (it has double the hull points and higher armour, for a start, not to mention the guns and transport capacity), so it's certainly one way of doing it :victory:
 

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My group has been playing the single grenade rule almost since it came out in 7th, and I can't really say it makes Tank Bustas none threatening. 13 points apiece for a 24" BS2 Krak Missile wielding lunatic with Two types of grenades (Any Tyranid player like myself will tell you not to knock assault grenades) is a pretty measly price to pay in my opinion.

Especially when you factor in Tank Hunter, which is an excellent rule at the best of times. On a 13 point model it's an absolute steal in my opinion, and I'd be very interested in any cheaper models rocking a similar upgrade as standard.

I'd say Hive guard, which come in at just under quadruple the cost, are hard pressed to compete, but the ignores cover thing is also pretty excellent so it's a tough one to call. I guess it's more of a situational discussion, but if you were to factor in throwing as many grenades as you like (Hive guard are S5 with 2 attacks apiece.....yay?) then personally I'd categorise Tank Bustas as undercosted.

I'm not particularly convinced by the poor armour save argument when you have access to open topped assault transports, especially in an edition when anything that isn't an invulnerable save feels laughable at times, but that's a whole other debate. (Oh 2+, how the mighty have fallen).
 

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Except Buzzgob's Stompa is highly contentious, and taking that for 400 points can be seen as TFG by many. I'm OK with kustom stompas though, and prefer them to the codex version.
Powerklaws are great, but to take on a knight, you're swamping it in Boyz to deliver the klaw, or klaws if you chuck in a IC, or you could spam MANZ of course.
So we're down to spamming klaws, until GW notices, and nerfs that too.

Rush, I totally agree, tankbustas were excellent value for money, but they are so vulnerable, you have to spend points to protect them to get them in to combat, or spam the hell out of them.
However we weren't throwing as many grenades as we liked, we were sacrificing multiple base attacks for a single attack per model, so between 5-10. Totally lethal, but the attrition of getting there means you were most likely only attacking with 3-6 models, if you were lucky.
BS2 rockets are only really useful for knocking off a few hull you cannot rely on 5-10 BS2 shots to do any serious damage. Close combat melta bombs were where the bustas shined.
Also, open topped av10 trukks get blown to hell so easily by virtually everything it's not even funny. Then All those t-shirt save Orks are taking str4 hits, wiping out about half the squad, then if you do have mob rule, even more are wiped out by your own nob. It's ridiculous, basically you have to write them off.
Getting tankbustas into cc is an art in itself, requiring imagination, luck and flair, I've used All sorts of delivery systems, my favorite being weird boy ic and da jump, which has been great fun, but relies on so much luck it's hardly a viable or reliable strategy.

The main thing that grinds me is that Orks have so few quality units, yet GW can't even let us keep what we have.
TBH I am very salty over it, makes me want to take a hammer to my crimson fists in spite.
 

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R_Squared said:
The main thing that grinds me is that Orks have so few quality units, yet GW can't even let us keep what we have.
TBH I am very salty over it, makes me want to take a hammer to my crimson fists in spite.
And even after a hammer to their Ranks the Crimson Fists will still fight on defiantly
 
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