[whittsy]

I've heard the rule now is that if a squad's wargear says that each model is armed with (Said) grenade. The squad may only throw 1 grenade.

ie: A squad of 10 Chaos Space Marines are each armed with frag and Krak grenades. The Aspiring Champion is armed with Frag, Krak and Melta Bombs. The squad is attacking a Rhino in CC. They attack the rear armour as stated in the old rules. But when they go to attack, only 1 grenade is allowed to be thrown. Is this correct? Can the Champion throw his bomb and the squad throw 1 Krak grenade? Or can the unit still throw their grenades each (9 grenades and 1 melta bomb).

ie2 (Actual example): My brothers Tau firewarriors are engaged in CC with an Imperial Knight. The knight attacks do not kill the entire unit, leaving 8 fire warriors alive. The firewarriors respond with throwing Haywire Grenades. The rule is read by the Imperial Knight player and states "a squad may only throw 1 grenade". The firewarrior squad gets stomped after doing jack with its 1 Haywire grenade.

I don't understand why, if the wargear states, they have certain wargear, WHY they can't all use their wargear. It's like saying "Your squad is all armed with bolters but you can only fire 1 bolter per turn". (I've been told before to make sarcasm a different colour as sarcasm is hard to pick up on in typing.)

 

[fatmantis]

i belive thats only in the shooting phase..in CC all can use theri grandes on vehicle and MC

 

[Mossy Toes]

"Throwing" a grenade is during the shooting phase--you can still make as many attacks in melee against a vehicle or MC as you want.

I believe it's a balancing mechanic--why fire bolters against something tough (like, say, a light vehicle) at all if you're close enough to throw 10 krak grenades, then assault and melee attack with 10 more krak grenades?

I do, however, believe that the way the rules for grenades are phrased, you may throw one of each type of grenade you have available: you can throw one frag and one krak grenade in the above example, for instance. 3 Plague Marines could forgo firing bolters in order to throw frag, krak, and defensive grenades. This is on account of the fact that each grenade entry says "one model in the squad equipped with this type of grenade may throw one instead of firing another weapon"--that same holds true for each individual entry of grenades.

 

[whittsy]

Thanks for clearing that up guys!

 

[Rush Darling]

Second paragraph under Grenades of the 41st Millenium (Before all of the grenade profiles)

"Only one grenade (Of any type) can be thrown by a unit per phase"

So that's one in shooting, one in assault, unless you've got multiple units in the combat, in which case treat yourself.

 

[Vaz]

The only mention of throwing is in the shooting phase. You may make 10 Krak attacks, but only 1 grenade may be thrown.



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[Angel of Blood]

The only mention of throwing is in the shooting phase. You may make 10 Krak attacks, but only 1 grenade may be thrown.

"Only one grenade (Of any type) can be thrown by a unit per phase".

Like he said, it's right there at the beginning. One grenade per unit, per phase. So no, only 1 grenade for the unit in combat.

 

[Rush Darling]

Apologies, full paragraph reads:

"Some greandes can be used to make shooting attacks or attacks in the Fight sub-phase, albeit to different effect. Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per phase)"

To me this covers both Shooting Phase i.e. "Shooting attacks" and Assault Phase i.e "Fight sub-phase".

If you're point of view is that in the shooting profile of each grenade it actually says the word "Throw", where as in the assault phase it simply says the word "used", and as such as the "(of any type) can be THROWN by a unit per phase", then I can see where you're coming from.

However firstly from a pragmatic sense, I can't see them using the phrase "per phase" if they only meant shooting attacks.

And secondly this would also imply that the attacker doesn't actually throw the grenade, and ten space marines running behind a transport to make a little grenade pile whilst hoping nobody makes a mistake before they're clear seems a little bit odd to me.

But then again, space marines.

 

[MidnightSun]

And secondly this would also imply that the attacker doesn't actually throw the grenade, and ten space marines running behind a transport to make a little grenade pile whilst hoping nobody makes a mistake before they're clear seems a little bit odd to me.

You do know that the vehicle's rear armour is used because they can post Krak Grenades in through the windows and jam them down the exhaust pipe, not because it's actually the rear armour of the tank being grenaded, right?

I've never seen anyone rule it that you can only use one grenade per unit in combat. Ever.

 

[neferhet]

It's only "trowing" the stuff, that limits you at one per phase. You don't throw grenades in melee, you make a single attack using the grenade profile. Shooting phase or overwatch have you ThROW a single granade instead!
SO, melee is not throwing.

 

[Angel of Blood]

I'm still not sold on that at all. Why would it say one per phase otherwise? It's just poor wording. Why would it say only one per phase if there is no situation where you would throw a grenade in combat. Or indeed any other phase.

That and I'd still argue that you are throwing the grenade down an exhaust hatch, into an open hatch etc etc.

 

[Rush Darling]

Cheers for the input guys!

Guessing it's all coming down to semantics now.

One thing I did discover:

The wording changed from 6th to 7th.

6th: "Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per Shooting phase". Pg61 of 6th BRB.

7th: "Only one grenade (of any type) can be thrown by a unit per phase". Pg180 of 7th BRB.

I'm not sure if the omission of the word "shooting" is a failed attempt to stop multi-grenade close combat, or just to stop multi-grenade overwatch.

Guessing this'll just be an ongoing discussion for a while. Being a space marine player I know which benefits me more, but as our local gaming group plays the one grenade rule (which is quite effective rather than complete roflstop) I'll just have to remember to discuss it whenever I go anywhere new.

 

[MidnightSun]

I'm still not sold on that at all. Why would it say one per phase otherwise? It's just poor wording. Why would it say only one per phase if there is no situation where you would throw a grenade in combat. Or indeed any other phase.

Because you throw them in friendly shooting phases and enemy assault phases for Overwatch?

 

[Vaz]

I'm still not sold on that at all. Why would it say one per phase otherwise? It's just poor wording. Why would it say only one per phase if there is no situation where you would throw a grenade in combat. Or indeed any other phase.

That and I'd still argue that you are throwing the grenade down an exhaust hatch, into an open hatch etc etc.

Youseem surprised about GW's ability to word things properly. Sweeping Advances, Psychic Phase in particular coming to mind.

I don't have 7th edition book to hand, but going by the RAW, the only mention of 'throwing' is in the shooting phase ('throw a grenade in the shooting phase' iirc), while melee makes no mention of throwing whatsoever.

The wording of 6th edition and 7th edition is irrelevant. I can bring out the Inquisitor rulebook and see what that says, or maybe the DND3.5th edition rules for the exact same weight of argument that gives. I can see the intention behind it, but for a game with 7th edition core rules, you use the latest.



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[Deathypoo]

The rules specifically say that melee attacks are "clamped in place" (1st sentence under "Vehicles, Gun Emplacements, and Monstrous Creatures" BRB 180)

In other words, melee grenades are not thrown. Every model can attack with it.

Also, I realize this is very indirect so I risk weakening my point, but I still think this is relevant: look at the paragraph long explanations under every single grenade type. Every shooting description specifies that a single model replaces their attack with the grenade, and none of the melee descriptions make any such statement.

 

[Angel of Blood]

So just to update on this one. As per the FAQ.

No. You may only use one grenade in the assault phase per unit. One model may use a grenade, that's it. No 10 krak grenades etc.

 

[Rush Darling]

Finally.

 

[ntaw]

That just made melta bombs on squad sergeants more important.

 

[R_Squared]

....and nerfed the ever living out of tankbustas.

Finally GW have stepped upto the plate to curb the tyranny of the orks. :wink:

 

[ArkInRev]

and nerfed the ever living out of tankbustas.

The reason I don't consider this a nerf to anyone, is that I've been playing 1 grenade in the assault the entire time.

I've also seen on a lot of forums how "all models getting [insert special grenade] is stupid and useless now" Ignoring my above statement that I think it's been that way all of 7th edition: It's still nice to have more than one model that can plant the melta bomb or toss the krak grenade. I'd rather throw 1 haywire grenade or plant one melta bomb as long as something is alive in the unit, rather than have to protect the ball carrier. Of course points are a consideration, but just throwing that counter point at it.