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Secondly having loken lose his memories is basically killing him off. Which is also the reason why I believe he's not going to become a grey knight.
In the audio Grey Angel we learn that Loken/ Cerberus has full access to his memories, good and bad.

I'm going to relate this to what you said about Tarvitz, earlier on in the thread. I'd say Saul Tarvitz and his lot are all likely dead. It does say that they are standing within the precentors palace as it is falling down around them. They don't even run to take cover or anything because in the words from the book "There was little point." To me, that pretty much confirms they are dead. Course, we've had this argument before and I'd rather not start that up again, so to get my point across that this is my opinion, I have highlighted and underlined "To me". Just in case anyone gets the wrong idea.... But yeah, I'd say that even though no bodies were produced, and I believe Loken was the only one recovered from the planet (though I wouldn't know, I haven't listened to the audio book, which is where Loken is confirmed to be still among the living correct?), so I would definitely say they are dead. But thats just me, though.
Loken was NOT the only one recovered form Isstavan III. In the Forge world Horus Heresy book 1, Betrayal, we learn that a group of Astarte led by a Death Guard, Crysos Morturg, made it back to Terra.

pg 266 side bar, "Despite all the odds Morturg survived the atrocity of Isstavan III and the few remnants of the slaughtered Loyalists he had gathered to him would live to revenge themselves against their former brothers."

Frustratingly though, i can not link Tarvitz and the ones with him to Morturg. The fact that he is a confirmed survivor though really opened the door for Tarvitz, should he have survived the Bombs.
As for Loken, well, I think they should have kept him dead. He was injured during his fight, then a friggin building collapsed on top of him, shattering his rib cage, and driving the shards into organs and such. How does a Space Marine survive that? Being buried underneath tons of rubble, where in False Gods, IIRC (or maybe earlier on in Galaxy in Flames. I cant exactly remember which book it was in), a horde of World Eaters, along with Angron, were buried under tons of rubble, with only Angron being able to live because he's a primarch. So how the hell did Loken live through the same thing that killed so many World Eaters Astartes? That is what strikes me as odd.
In Legio of One we learn the building that fell on Loken was filled with "cavernous spaces". I think when he felt the rubble shift around him, he fell into one of these and thus was saved from the crushing weight. The World Eaters must not have been so blessed.
What, did the Emperor himself pull Loken out of the rubble, and shamoo himself back to Terra, leaving a loyalist Astartes on a planet full of zombies, while he has amnesia? He'd be a prick if that was the case, which shouldn't come as a surprise to many of the members here. They could have picked a different astartes to fill the role, but they picked Loken. Why? Is all sense of symbolism lost on them? I guess so......
The Emperor protects! It was fate that choose the building that held the duel. It was the Emperor himself that guided the foot of the Titan Dies Irae into the building at the right moment to save Loken from Abaddon. The Emperor or Malcador knew Loken lived some how and sent Garro to retrieve him. We learn in the Audio Wolf Hunt, that the Astartes gathered will indeed become the Grey Knights.
 

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I know that he regains his memories. But is it not the tradition of the grey knights to wipe the memory of recruits. So wouldn't loken be included in that?
The recruits you speak of are new to the Gene Seed right? Garro and co have been recruited for the knowledge they have. Why mind wipe the best first hand knowledge of how to defeat your enemies? This tradition may have started a bit later.
 

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In the audio Grey Angel we learn that Loken/ Cerberus has full access to his memories, good and bad.


Loken was NOT the only one recovered form Isstavan III. In the Forge world Horus Heresy book 1, Betrayal, we learn that a group of Astarte led by a Death Guard, Crysos Morturg, made it back to Terra.

pg 266 side bar, "Despite all the odds Morturg survived the atrocity of Isstavan III and the few remnants of the slaughtered Loyalists he had gathered to him would live to revenge themselves against their former brothers."

Frustratingly though, i can not link Tarvitz and the ones with him to Morturg. The fact that he is a confirmed survivor though really opened the door for Tarvitz, should he have survived the Bombs.

In Legio of One we learn the building that fell on Loken was filled with "cavernous spaces". I think when he felt the rubble shift around him, he fell into one of these and thus was saved from the crushing weight. The World Eaters must not have been so blessed.
I don't have Betrayal in hand either, so thanks for clearing that up. I still refer back to Galaxy in Flames about Tarvitz and his band. The tone at that point was one of finality, when he thought "There was little point" to take cover as the building collapsed around them. I firmly believe that his band are indeed dead at this point. It was mass orbital bombardment. Saul saw the bombardment coming down towards them, but they just stood there.

The Death Guard's band was, most likely, further out, towards the trenches where the Death Guard were initially fighting, before the betrayal. Thats what I would think, at any rate. They'd have had to fight through the World Eaters plus Angron, the Emperor's Children, their own brothers in the Death Guard to have escaped the trenches in the first place, and the Sons of Horus when they landed. They would have had to have been further out. I refer back to the book. With Tarvitz' band at the end he doesn't mention any Death Guard that were with them. Only the remaining Sons of Horus, Emperors Children, and "even a few lost looking World Eaters". But hey, at least a few more loyalists survived the purging. Thats something at least.

Could Saul's band have survived the bombardment? To me, doubtfully, since the main focus of it seems to have been the Precentors Palace, where the remaining loyalists were mainly clustered. Until the authors write otherwise, I'm of the mind that they're dead and gone, buried underneath the rubble of the Precentors Palace.
 

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Bane of Empires
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An Astartes surviving major wounds and a a building collapsing on him is not that much of a issue, nor is the fact that a few loyalists survived Isstvan III. The issue for me is that Loken survived. I honestly think that is the most serious mistake that the series authors have made, and they've made countless.

We learn in the Audio Wolf Hunt, that the Astartes gathered will indeed become the Grey Knights.
I haven't listened to Lone Wolf yet, could you reveal (in spoilers) how them becoming the Grey Knights has be finally confirmed?

Game of Thrones is VERY relevant to the topic of Loken's near death. When someone dies in GoT it is always with a witness and on screen. Ned Stark was executed in public. His head put on a pike for all to see. That is how to kill some one. The two Stark kids, Brand and Riken, were "killed" by Theon, in public but no one saw their faces, so not every one thinks they are dead. People in my circle thought the Blackfish might be dead also because of how the Red wedding went down. Since he left the room and was not shown to be killed out side, My gf told us he has to be alive. She was right. We are led to think Aria's Dance teacher dies when we last see him but don't see him actually die. That means to me he is alive. The point i'm trying to make is you don't let your characters die off screen because like Stan Lee said, they work to hard to create them to not get some value from their deaths, if they die at all. When a character does have a death off screen, it might be a real one but i am always a skeptic if i don't see a body. This whole situation is a great case to show why you need a head when you claim a death.
In most cases perhaps, you need to see the body/head to confirm a death. But good stories don't always need to provide such evidence. Arya's dancing master, for example, is most likely dead. We cannot say for certain, but the chances are he is dead and we'll never see him again. It's not an issue that we haven't seen his corpse, we should just assume he was killed (especially given he was claiming he would never run and the Kingsguard who confronted him obviously survived). We don't need to see every characters death to know they have died.

Given, in some circumstances this leaves certain character's demises open, such as Loken's. And given, we don't always know for certain characters have died if we don't witness them actually dying. But I don't think we need to, you can often create much more dramatic scenes such as Arya leaving Syrio to his land stand, or Tarvitz and co. muttering there is "no point" in trying to take shelter before making their own defiant last stand etc. than actually having to show them literally dying.
 

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Deathwing Commissar
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As for Loken, well, I think they should have kept him dead.
Correction. You thought he should have died. Once the authors go on record with a statement like "he was never dead, and we never planned on him to die," saying Loken should have been kept dead is like me saying Torgaddon shouldn't have been killed.

All of us fall for the "I really thought he died!" bit at some point. Such is life. All I can tell you is that, in literature, more often than not the hero or villain who isn't demonstrably shown dying... is probably alive after all.

I mean, look at the whole situation objectively. Loken and Torgaddon square off against Abaddon and Little Horus. Torgaddon gets decapitated. That's pretty final, daemonic resurrection not withstanding. Abaddon then crushes Loken's breastplate/bone shield, but opts to perform the "evil villain monologue" routine. The Dies Irae then predictably smashes through the building, interrupting Abaddon from, you know, actually killing Loken. What purpose does it serve to delay Loken's supposed death until another scene? Drama? Some people thought so. Other people saw it as a hint: Loken's assured death is interrupted, and replaced with an ambiguous proclamation.

The same thing applies to Tarvitz and his people. Why would the author deliberately leave them at the Preceptor's Palace at the beginning of a bombardment, but not at their moment of death? When, a mere two novels later, Lucius practically spelled out their avenue of retreat, this didn't seem like a reversal to me, but a confirmation that doubting their death was the right call.

If it's any consolation, hints as to Loken's fate existed even before 'Galaxy in Flames'. Per the closing chapters of 'False Gods':
"Loken had killed thousands of enemies before, and he would kill thousands more in wars yet to be fought, ..."

Little hints like those are hardly unique in this series. :wink:

He was injured during his fight, then a friggin building collapsed on top of him, shattering his rib cage, and driving the shards into organs and such. How does a Space Marine survive that?
By... being a Space Marine? I'm not trying to be rude by any means, but, at some point, a reader does have the responsibility to recall and take into consideration key knowledge of the setting. The superhuman abilities imparted by the organs created by Gene-seed fall under that category. How would this have played a factor in Loken's situation?

To begin with, the Ossmodula provided Loken with a "tremendously strong and fast-healing skeleton". From the second that his rib-cage was shattered, his body was already working to re-form the bones and heal them. Concurrently, Loken's blood cells would have immediately begun to help his superhuman skeleton heal itself. Unlike any normal human, though, Loken's twin hearts were pumping out twice as much blood to support that effort - blood that was considerably more efficient than the normal variety, thanks to his Haemastamen. At the same time, his Larraman's Organ ensured that any blood-loss was either minimized or eliminated altogether, allowing the previously mentioned organs to work at maximum capacity.

Put simply, Loken - like any other Space Marine - was a healing machine meant to survive wounds that would kill any normal human being... such as one's breastplate being shattered by massive concussive force. Absent a killing stroke (meltagun, decapitation, being exploded into pieces), Space Marines are remarkably adept at staying alive. Even those who would have been dead under normal circumstances (and in some stories are implied to have been in much worse shape than Loken) end up living for centuries or even millennia as Dreadnoughts. Granted, some authors take license with how well a given Space Marine's organs might deal with catastrophic damage. On the other hand, though, the same authors generally tell us when Astartes healing mechanisms are actually failing to do what they're supposed to.

Bottom line, the general rule has always been that Space Marines are remarkably hard to kill. I think that's something a lot of folks forgot when they were reading through Loken's specific situation.

(Incidentally, the "bones going into organs" bit is, no offense, conjecture on your part. Loken suffered from bruised and broken bones to be sure, but when secondary hearts burst, extra lungs collapse, etc., the authors - more often than not - tell us.)

Being buried underneath tons of rubble, where in False Gods, IIRC (or maybe earlier on in Galaxy in Flames. I cant exactly remember which book it was in), a horde of World Eaters, along with Angron, were buried under tons of rubble, with only Angron being able to live because he's a primarch. So how the hell did Loken live through the same thing that killed so many World Eaters Astartes? That is what strikes me as odd.
Because every situation that results in the creation of rubble generates the same amount of it?

In Loken's case, he could see outside the rubble pinning him. He had been pinned by the remainder a building torn apart by the Dies Irae. Angron's predicament was caused by an explosion that reached "hundreds of metres into the air". We don't know The amount of rubble Angron and his warriors were buried under merited the (exaggerated, to be sure) description of "mountain".

Cheers,
P.
 

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The Emperor Protects
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I haven't listened to Lone Wolf yet, could you reveal (in spoilers) how them becoming the Grey Knights has be finally confirmed?
 

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In most cases perhaps, you need to see the body/head to confirm a death. But good stories don't always need to provide such evidence. Arya's dancing master, for example, is most likely dead. We cannot say for certain, but the chances are he is dead and we'll never see him again. It's not an issue that we haven't seen his corpse, we should just assume he was killed (especially given he was claiming he would never run and the Kingsguard who confronted him obviously survived). We don't need to see every characters death to know they have died.
Not to spoil a wholly different series, but
Then again George RR Martin is a wily bastard of an author and has characters coming back from the dead, so WTF.

I would heartily suggest the Song of Ice and Fire books to anyone, as good as the HBO series has been, the books still add a depth of narrative and story you just can't get from the series. WH40K is really premised on exactly the kinds of grimdark politics the Song of Ice and Fire series displays masterfully.
 

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In one of the heresy novels thats a collection of short stories isn't it hinted that Loken is going to


 

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I think Garvi is still alive in the "present" 40k. I think he will be the answer to question he was asked by Mersadie Oliton , "How long do the Astartes live?". Answer over 10k years. I think he was cursed with immortality with the other Mournival brothers when they turned on each other. I think it is Loken who will eventually kill Lucius for good. In Legion of one he called him self the "undying". He said that the peace of the grave will only be his when the scales are balanced. Until Abaddon gets clipped, there will be no balance, thus he must live on.
I'm pretty sure he is in the warp hunting members of the Mournival
 
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