[the cabbage]

I was answering another post and the answer dragged out and moved OT so I thought I'd post it separately.

My concern is that the ruleset for our hobby is being tightened up too much to make it tournament ready.

The vast majority of gamers don't play in tournaments and I resent losing quirky and fun lists because they are over competitive. It could be argued that we can still use lists like speed freeks etc in fun games but over time they will become out dated and with only vanilla lists replacing them the game will IMO become poorer.

The solution is to address overpowered armies and units as they arise, in tournament rules. These rules should be a living document which could address seer villages, iron warriors etc. This would be easily justifiable by GW re-iterating that the rules are a gaming system not a water tight competition rule-set and therefore rquire tweaking for competition.

I have no problems with competitive play as such and often play for a beer or pizza but my concern is that the tail is starting to wag the dog. The answer I believe is more updates and the above tournament rules. These can be on the internet. GW claim this would disadvantage people without the internet. Since anybody with no internet access can't read this I say f*** em.

Anyway monday rant over

 

[jigplums]

From what i have heard gw are doing exactly as you say, making the system based more around tournament play. The idea being that anyone with a rulebook and codex can turn up to a Tournament and not get any major surprises. However they are then supposed to be bringing out other "fun" lists for people to use and supliments that make for a different style of gaming [cities of death, apocalyspe] however making it clear they are for friendly games and not tournament

 

[Viscount Vash]

The tail is most definately wagging the dog. With codexs now being made to fit tournements Not the other way round.

GW have a real knack of over-reacting with the nerf stick, take the Ironwarriors if they had simply removed the option for a fouth heavy support and made the looted vehicle 0-1 ( like the Ork codex.) it would have sorted the problem.

But now its seems my 120 odd Alpha Legion cultists will have to be shelved mainly because of an army I do not play dominating in tournements that I do not play in.

Vanilla Chaos :? if thats the way if pans out Im not gonna be happy, I have played Chaos since the realms on chaos books expressly because of the fact that I could turn out unique (well pretty much) and quirky lists.
I have always been drawn to the odd lists ( I had or do have KoS and LatD.)

I like to put stormbolters on my Marine Devy vet Sarges and little odd tweaks like that but with the recent Marine dex releases it looks more and more like such little personal touches are going and we get closer to to pre-written units.

Compitition games are great, OK I usally get my arse handed to me these days if I try them ( I was god in second edition but then I played about 10 times a week every week).
There have always been monster lists out there and they quite often win if you are not ready for them, But the best part of any larger event for me had always been meeting the unusual and quirky lists/players.

The beauty of the chaos dex was the fact that you would see stuff that you had not thought of ( Check my Avatar, none of my regular opponents had though of a winged Kai gun lieutenant and were most suprised at how annoying he was.), if it goes the same way as the marine ones have been its going to be pretty much the same thing every game from every opponent just painted different colours.

Bugger! You have set me off in to Ranting frothing man with action waggy finger mode. :x

Off for a chill :lol: .

 

[anathema]

If quirky lists are overpowered then they quickly cease to be fun. Something to think about. IW were probably a quirky list initially (look, no daemons!) but then they started to appear a lot and in a non-fun set-ups. The solution is to balance armies at the codex level so that everyone is on a level playing field, then the entire gaming community will be better off.

With IW if you remove the 4 heavies, then they just take all 9 oblits. Wow, so much easier. And the Basilisk always has been 0-1.

If they remove options then thats a bad thing, but if they correct the overpowered options thats a good thing overall.

 

[The Wraithlord]

From what i have heard gw are doing exactly as you say, making the system based more around tournament play. The idea being that anyone with a rulebook and codex can turn up to a Tournament and not get any major surprises. However they are then supposed to be bringing out other "fun" lists for people to use and supliments that make for a different style of gaming [cities of death, apocalyspe] however making it clear they are for friendly games and not tournament

See I like this idea. For the longest time I had no interest in the tournaments and refused to go to one until recently, getting hooked in the process. I like the idea of levelling the playing field for players well enough but what I really like here is the idea of bringing in the fun lists in supplements like Cities of Death (which rocks) down the road. With Apocalypse on the way, this idea seems to be valid as well and the great thing is that people will know beforehand if the list they are looking at is tournament legal or not. No confusion, no hassles.

I like that idea a lot.

 

[Prophaniti]

I think the thing here is that the UK GT, and to a lesser extent those in other countries, are GW's biggest resource for finding which armies are doing really well and which aren't. The games designers' intent is, I believe, to have all the armies as close to equal as possible in their potential, while staying true to the background.

Having 'fun' armies and games is fine, but the GT's provide the best indication of what's wrong with a particular army.

The 'living codex' is a great idea in principle (less so commercially) but it can throw up situations where opponents are using different, contradictory rules. So although both sets would be official, one player would have a nasty surprise. Also, the contemptuous view of people without net access for the lastest updates would not stand up face to face I think.

TTFN :cyclops:

 

[royemunson]

Well i'm going to see how they have done the new blood angel codex, and if it done in the same style as the dark angels then i may well drop well off the 40k scene. I like having lots of options and in the DA codex they got rid of a lot of them, plus the fact i have made a magnetic base for my blood angel army and now i will have to change the list and it wont fit anymore.

 

[uberschveinen]

Guys, were you not around in third edition, the time of the Chapter Approved? Sure, it was all nice and such, but was the single greatest boon for win-or-die players, the sort who push every rule in the book. A system of monthly or better updates where rules are released that may or may not change pre-existing rules? The sheer chaos unleashed by the system allowed them to get away with more or less anything. Frankly, I prefer the current system of Codex Only, where you always know exactly what you're getting into. Prophaniti is right. When it worked that way, the sheer amount of confusion over which mods were applied or not was horrific, and that's before some of the CA stuff became invalidated, FAQed and reprinted with different wording, and certain variations were banned in certain tournaments and games. You go to a tournament with CA rules, there's a decent chance your force will be illegal, and you'll have to mod it on the fly.

Updates are nice. Good updates are better. Constant updates that contradict the main rules, themselves, and even the precepts of the game are not.