[Uveron]

I always regarded the MM as the negative spillout of either the Imperial Fists (they use their tactics) or the Ultramarines (they have their arrogance). But that's me. Any theories are valid, as long as they are committed in a sensible way.

The Imperial Firsts and the Iron Warriors are the Different side of the same Coin... (I mean You can take IF Geenseed and make an Iron Warrior with no real issue.. as they do quite often). It is the like looking at the difference between the UK and the USA. There are lots of differences, but for the most part they are quite superficial. (Speaking as a Brit whom now lives in the wild west)

 

[Beaviz81]

The Imperial Firsts and the Iron Warriors are the Different side of the same Coin... (I mean You can take IF Geenseed and make an Iron Warrior with no real issue.. as they do quite often). It is the like looking at the difference between the UK and the USA. There are lots of differences, but for the most part they are quite superficial. (Speaking as a Brit whom now lives in the wild west)

Indeed, very few maybe none other Space Marine former legion has an evil counterpart as much as the IF with their level of similarity. Actually the worse IF are a lot like the IW. And I believe Honsou was a former IF just to get an example (if memory serves). And I know a few Americans as I have them as drinking-mates. Fine people with damn flat dialects when it comes to English.

 

[Uveron]

And I believe Honsou was a former IF just to get an example (if memory serves).

He was created with hybrid Geanseed by Fabius Bile... But it was IF stock.

 

[Beaviz81]

He was created with hybrid Geanseed by Fabius Bile... But it was IF stock.

Ah, yeah I thought I read that they preferred their geneseed, but also that they hated the IF above all else for their rivalry.

 

[zerachiel76]

Your opinion is quite valid for me, and I was always under the impression that 20-30% of the traitor legions stayed loyal with the exception of the Word Bearers.

Finally found some fluff which supports this idea:

The Death Eagles chapter which we know was in existence in M32 is almost certainly a loyalist element of the Emperors Children although to hide this they've been made into a successor Chapter of the Raven Guard.

 

[Beaviz81]

Finally found some fluff which supports this idea:

The Death Eagles chapter which we know was in existence in M32 is almost certainly a loyalist element of the Emperors Children although to hide this they've been made into a successor Chapter of the Raven Guard.

Where did you find this? Can you link the whole thingy to me in private?

 

[zerachiel76]

Where did you find this? Can you link the whole thingy to me in private?

I found it here on Facebook and I guess that someone has Conquest book and book a photo of this page Unfortunately I don't have the book so I only have this page.

https://www.facebook.com/TheLegioCu...5284221656705/319685181549941/?type=1&theater

Some of the 40k and Horus Heresy groups on Facebook are amazing

The other page I've found in the same group is

https://www.facebook.com/TheLegioCu...5284221656705/319682764883516/?type=1&theater

 

[jareddm]

Finally found some fluff which supports this idea:

The Death Eagles chapter which we know was in existence in M32 is almost certainly a loyalist element of the Emperors Children although to hide this they've been made into a successor Chapter of the Raven Guard.

I'd like to use this as an example showing that trying to use things like heraldry, tactics, or temperment in order to guess at a chapter's lineage is rather meaningless. New homeworlds, new command staff, new alliances, and 10,000 years of battles will change enough about a chapter that to use such superficial evidence is just as good as blind guessing.

 

[zerachiel76]

I'd like to use this as an example showing that trying to use things like heraldry, tactics, or temperment in order to guess at a chapter's lineage is rather meaningless. New homeworlds, new command staff, new alliances, and 10,000 years of battles will change enough about a chapter that to use such superficial evidence is just as good as blind guessing.

I agree but in this circumstance when the Chapter Name is specifically stated as being a loyalist section of the Emperors Children it makes it clear to me that they probably are in this circumstance.

After all look at their original colour scheme and heraldry and tell me that they don't look similar to pre heresy Emperor's Children?

I suspect that the Forge World books may drip feeding us juicy fluff tidbits like this deliberately.

 

[Beaviz81]

Unfortunately 12.000 years mires the Space Marine-chapter in its tactics and vulnerabilities. Thats what the current fluff is all about for the Space Marines. They all have differentiating strength and weaknesses, and many of them even my beloved Imperial Fists has became far too arrogant for their own good.

 

[jareddm]

I agree but in this circumstance when the Chapter Name is specifically stated as being a loyalist section of the Emperors Children it makes it clear to me that they probably are in this circumstance.

After all look at their original colour scheme and heraldry and tell me that they don't look similar to pre heresy Emperor's Children?

I suspect that the Forge World books may drip feeding us juicy fluff tidbits like this deliberately.

That's my point. There's nothing about the Death Eagles that superficially points to them being of traitor geneseed. Hence using superficial lore, such as what people try to do with the Red Scorpions, Marines Malevolent, Minotaurs, and Sons of Antaeus, as evidence of traitor geneseed is meaningless. As for their old color scheme...eh, I don't see it. Looks more White Scars to me.

 

[Beaviz81]

They might have kept traitors in the SM at first after the HH, but yeah eventually they would not be present as their geneseed likely would be seen as corrupted by the AdMech and High Lords.

 

[VulkansNodosaurus]

On chapters from traitor gene-stock: yes, they would probably be destroyed (after a certain point in the Imperium's degeneration) if the truth was discovered. Fortunately for them, the Imperium is absolutely terrible at determining the parentage of a Chapter. See: Soul Drinkers, Blood Ravens, etc.. And records are not kept particularly well over ten millennia. Especially if their discovery would lead to their owners getting killed.

On the Decimation: It's a terrible piece of fluff that was added in to make Perturabo look bad. But at the same time, it can be interpreted in another way - namely, that Perturabo hated his Legion as it was before his finding for good reason, such as that it had zero discipline, or backstabbed each other in a systematic way. The tragedy, then, is that even with brutal means like that Perturabo still failed to make the Iron Warriors into a truly cohesive Legion - but that doesn't mean they weren't even worse before him.

 

[Beaviz81]

The decimation was Pertubo's first step towards evil or in this case Chaos, and the fact that he was willing to kill one in every ten Astartes showed how brutal and uncompromising Perturbo were. And even worse, he hadn't yet been on campaign with them yet despite them basically following his doctrine, which I find utterly confusing.

 

[zerachiel76]

That's my point. There's nothing about the Death Eagles that superficially points to them being of traitor geneseed. Hence using superficial lore, such as what people try to do with the Red Scorpions, Marines Malevolent, Minotaurs, and Sons of Antaeus, as evidence of traitor geneseed is meaningless. As for their old color scheme...eh, I don't see it. Looks more White Scars to me.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. How about the implications in this Black Library story that some of the Night Lords remained loyal

http://www.blacklibrary.com/horus-heresy/value-of-fear-ebook.html

 

[Beaviz81]

When it comes to those implications I think some might have stayed loyal initially, but Chaos is the corruption. You just can't fight the corruption by becoming corrupt. There are a few novels about Inquisitors to back my point.

 

[Over Two Meters Tall!]

That's my point. There's nothing about the Death Eagles that superficially points to them being of traitor geneseed. Hence using superficial lore, such as what people try to do with the Red Scorpions, Marines Malevolent, Minotaurs, and Sons of Antaeus, as evidence of traitor geneseed is meaningless. As for their old color scheme...eh, I don't see it. Looks more White Scars to me.

So, what do you mean by 'using superficial lore'? The quote posted about the Death Eagles comes from a GW company, ergo, it's canon... until a retcon comes along and changes/eliminates it entirely. So for this case, I suppose you can choose what to 'believe' or not from the canon, but that's your choice to ignore official canon and not a difference in two gamers opinions. I agree with your opinion about the marines color scheme, but one of the hallmarks of the Emperor's Children was the Emperor granting them the right to have the wing emblem on their pauldron, which the Death Eagles model pretty clearly has.

I think the book 'Warriors of Ultramar' highlights perfectly how radically a successor chapter can change over the millenium. The Ultramarines barely recognize their kinship with the Mortifactors, in heraldry or anything else. I do think there are very specific genetic mutations common in certain Founding Legions that can prove the origin of a specific marines geneseed. However, with the mixing of geneseed over time, replenishing a chapter after devestation, or just having the Admech/Administratum 'experiment' with or without a chapters knowledge trying to generalize an entire chapter would be difficult.

 

[randian]

We still have no explanation for Perturabo going daemon prince. He was obviously disgusted by Fulgrim.

 

[Beaviz81]

Maybe his position of opinion changed, that's my bet in this matter. Plus he is basically the evil counterpart of Rogal Dorn from the get go. I mean Dorn is likely to have chided his legion for not being up to the task, Perturbo decimated them just for that.

 

[randian]

What changed then? People rarely decide that disgusting things are now desirable.