[Xabre]

This is another rules debate that exploded in another location, and once again I decided to port it over here for a second, third, and 18th opinion.

This one specifically has come from Clan Raukaan, or however you spell it. Games Workshop has stated in their webstore that you CAN still buy the supplement, and that it's still usable, with 'minor tweaks' and 'some things that don't work. The wording for Techmarines suggests that if you take an HQ, you are allowed to take two Techmarines which don't count against your HQ selections.

The currently rampant argument that I'm seeing lately is that even in something like a Gladius, where the exact formation is pretty much written out for you, IH players are saying that Clan Raukaan can take additional Techmarines, because the Captain/Chaplain is an HQ choice, so they're eligible to add more TMs.

My argument is that since it's not a CHOICE, but instead a pre-set selection where you don't get to 'count against your HQ selections', you don't get to take the extra Techmarines.

(honestly, my personal opinion is that since there's no such thing as a techmarine that no longer counts against your HQ slots, that whole thing should be invalidated, but I tend to not fight that one anymore)

These people tend to say that it makes perfect sense that Iron Hands should be able to have more TMs in their detachment, and it doesn't matter that it's a dictated force org, because it's still an HQ. I've countered by saying it's not a Choice, and GW has written rules in the past for when you are refused a choice (such as Chaos Focus and Psychic Focus).


Thoughts?

 

[Vaz]

Per RAW, with the 7th Edition Update to Clan Raukaan (eVersion) being the latest release of the rules, Clan Raukaan is a legal supplement to Codex; Space Marines, but Codex; Space Marines uses the most recent version of the rules.

Now, a techmarine is stated to be a HQ as its battlefield role. Each Battlefield Role has a number of slots with which you can take a number of those battlefield roles.

"For each HQ choice in a Clan Raukaan Detachment (not including other techmarines, servitors, Command Squads or Honour Guard) you may include up to two techmarines. [Master of the Forge omitted as no longer available unit type] These selections do not use up a Force Organisation Slot."
ref; Clan Raukaan .mobi

"Formations are a special type of detachment. [explanation of formations] Instead of including a Force Organisation Chart, the Army List entries that comprise a formation are listed on it, along with any special rules those units gain. Unless stated otherwise, each individual unit maintains its normal battlefield role when taken as part of a formation."

So;

It's a Detachment, using the Clan Raukaan rules. If a HQ is an available option for that Detachment, you may include two techmarines.

However, a Detachment requires specific units, and list which units those are, and most importantly lists "any special rule those units gain".

So, only those units which are listed as being part of the formation gain any special rules from it, and it only counts as a formation provided you have the units within it.

Per rules parsing, it can be read one of two ways;

You're not a detachment unless you meet exactly what's required, no more, no less.

Those additional units may be included, but don't recieve any special rules benefits from the detachment, as they are not actually listed as "those units" in the detachment.

I'm leaning towards the latter, personally.

 

[morfangdakka]

I would agree with Vaz that to get the benefits of the formation you have to have exactly what the formation states must be there nothing more nothing less. If they want to add the TM that are not part of the formation then they lose the benefits of the formation.

This same argument came up on the ork codex when the supplement Ghazghull came out. For each HQ you had you could take a free mek up to 3 of them. But the formations are specific so only those units in the formation can be used to the benefits. If they want the extra techmarines they need to run a second CAD.