well, i've found out that, when i play a forgefiend, if something gets in 24" range its often too late. They have worked good for me, but only as a long range support. having to rely on a 24" weapon is not the best way to use them, imo. they die too easily, and are pretty much useless (if opponents is wise) for the first two turns. slow, short range, easily disabled (AV12, c'mon...) i try to use them from the first shooting phase to get back my points. Shure AP 2 is great, but if you are so needy of AP2 go Obliterators. My two cents.