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Discussion Starter #1
Ok, got a rule question:

The Librarian comes with a Force Weapon, Pg. 46 Warhammer Rule Book. This is a Power Weapon on steroids. Anytime you wound a model, you MUST take a Psychic Test. If you pass the test, you kill the opponent outright with his psychic ability. The Librarian may only use one psychic ability per turn.

Now, if my Librarian uses any psychic ability during the Shooting Phase, then Assaults with his Force Weapon, how can he use his Force Weapon which requires him to use his psychic ability again?
 

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The short answer is no, since you can't use more than one psychic power per turn, normally.

You don't HAVE to use the force weapon's ability. The rule says you MAY take the psychic check, not that you HAVE to take the check.

Admittedly, it'd be an interesting balancing trick to make the Librarian take a psychic check every time he swings in close combat, purely so that he suffers Perils of the Warp more often, since, you know, he's sort of plugged in with that Psychic Hood...
 

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TSoH is right. If a librarian uses a psychic power in the shooting phase, he can't use the Force Weapon special ability as he's already used his power that turn...and the Force Weapon functions as a power weapon only that turn.

If the librarian doesn't use a power in the shooting phase, he CAN use the Force Weapon special ability, make a psychic check (after successfully hitting and causing a wound) and flat out kill the target.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks guys. I missed the MAY part and thought the check was manditory. You also pointed out one of my following fears, he'd be exposed to the warp everytime he hit anything. It is nice that he can use the ability during my opponent's turn as well, and as you noted, it kills the enemy out right!
 

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Here's a question:

What about a Tzeentch sorcerer? The mark of Tzeentch lets you use two powers in a turn, but the force weapon entry says it may not be used in the same turn you use a power.
 

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it should specify in the entry for the sorceror i think. for example in mephistons entry it states he can use all his phsych powers in one turn and still wield his force weapon as a force weapon.
 

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So if it doesn't explicitly say he can use his force weapon then it doesn;t matter how many powers he can use?
 

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Until they FAQ that, it reads that you can use two psychic powers, but not a force weapon, in a given turn with the Mark of Tzeentch on a Sorcerer. Essentially, you can use Wind of Chaos and Warp Time and fight normally in close combat, or you can use the Force Weapon, but not a combination of psychic power and force weapon.
 

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<nods> Makes sense, I suppose.

How about a related puzzler...

Can a MoT Daemon Prince use two shooting powers in a turn?

The rules in the chaos dex say that a MoT psyker can only use one shooting power, *because* models can only fire one weapon in shooting phase.

However, MCs can fire two weapons. While the rule doesn't make a specific exception for DPs, the reason it gives for the restriction is because you can only fire one weapon. Logiclaly, creatures exempt from that rule are also exempt from that aspect of the MoT rule.
 

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I'd think a daemon prince of Tzeentch would be able to use two shooting powers per turn, because you're able to use two shooting attacks per turn with a monstrous creature. The rules really refer to a Sorcerer, and not a Daemon Prince, in the codex where it explains using psychic powers in a turn. Again, that's something that I imagine will be FAQ'd.
 

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TSOH is right, you can use a force weapon or a psychic power, there are two exceptions to this -

Arhiman's Black staff - which allows him to use up to three psychic powers in a turn including using the staff as a force weapon.

Typhus's Manreaper - which can be used as a force weapon even if a Typhus has used a psychic power in the same turn.
 

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<cough> Three.
Mephiston, who needs no fancy equipment to whip off all his psychic powers and his force weapon in a turn...'cause he's made of cold-forged badass ;-)
 

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RAW a Sorceror with MoT (and Aspiring Sorcerors) may use a Psychic power prior to the assualt phase and then use the Force weapon in the assualt phase but per to the rules for Force weapons (page 46 BGB) they may not use any other psychic powers in the assualt phase if they choose to use the Force weapon ability.

RAW a Daemon Prince cannot use 2 shooting psychic power (even with MoT) as it specifically stated that no one can use 2 psychic powers in the shooting phase. It is commonly believed that they may FAQ this out to allow DPs to do so as they can use 2 weapons in the shooting phase but untill then just try to get a house rule allowing it.

Hope this helps!
 

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Actually, by RAW it says you cannot use another psychic power in the same turn you use the force weapon ability, without making an exception for tzeentch sorcerers, so by strict rules as written even a sorcerer who can use multiple powers per turn cannot use his force weapon and a psychic power in the same player turn, regardless of what phase it's in. Some characters (like Mephiston and Ahriman) make exceptions within their own rules, however.

As far as using two shooting powers goes, however, the RAW does not explicitly forbid a Tzeentch DP from using two shooting powers. It does say that you may only use one shooting power, however, the reason they give is because models may not fire two weapons. If you are an exception to the rule that says you may not fire two weapons, then you are an exception to the rule that says you may not use two shooting powers (Rule B exists in reference to rule A, if you are an exception to rule A, rule B does not apply)

The difference here is the force weapon prohibition is a blanket rule. It does not say 'you may not use another power in the same turn that you use the force weapon ability because you may only use one power per turn' it just simply says you may not. Period. However, the rule preventing tzeentch sorcerers from using two powers says that this is because you can only fire one weapon.

That's how it reads in my mind
 

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Actually, by RAW it says you cannot use another psychic power in the same turn you use the force weapon ability, without making an exception for tzeentch sorcerers, so by strict rules as written even a sorcerer who can use multiple powers per turn cannot use his force weapon and a psychic power in the same player turn, regardless of what phase it's in. Some characters (like Mephiston and Ahriman) make exceptions within their own rules, however.
Thats what I said...

As far as using two shooting powers goes, however, the RAW does not explicitly forbid a Tzeentch DP from using two shooting powers. It does say that you may only use one shooting power, however, the reason they give is because models may not fire two weapons. If you are an exception to the rule that says you may not fire two weapons, then you are an exception to the rule that says you may not use two shooting powers (Rule B exists in reference to rule A, if you are an exception to rule A, rule B does not apply)
It doesnt matter the reason it gives.. the rule states may only use one shooting power. If the rule had ended with "unless you normally could shoot more than one weapon in the shooting phase" then it would allow it. But as is right now.. DP may only shoot one psychic power in the shooting phase. As I said before this will more than likely be FAQed to allow DP to do so and I agree that probably should be able to. I personally dont believe developers thought about this at all else they would have worded that rule far more clearly.

The difference here is the force weapon prohibition is a blanket rule. It does not say 'you may not use another power in the same turn that you use the force weapon ability because you may only use one power per turn' it just simply says you may not. Period. However, the rule preventing tzeentch sorcerers from using two powers says that this is because you can only fire one weapon.

That's how it reads in my mind
Again I agree with you as this is what I said earlier. The confusion probably came from where I said that they may use a psychic power PRIOR to the assualt phase and use the Force weapon ability.
 

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You may not use a power prior to the assault phase and still use the Force Weapon ability. It says if you use Force weapon you may not use any other powers that turn. Period. Unless you're referring to the other player's assault phase.

And the rule does not say 'You may not use two shooting powers.' period, fullstop. It says you may not use two shooting powers *because* models may not fire two weapons. This rule applies BECAUSE the rules for shooting prohibit the use of two weapons in the same turn.

Therefore if you are an exception to the rule regarding shooting multiple weapons, you are an exception to the rule regarding powers. The two rules are inextricably linked. One exists *because* of the other rule. If you are an exception to the one rule you're an exception to them both.
 

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What I meant by PRIOR to the assualt phase is shooting phase, movement phase, beginning of turn psychic powers. So again as I said here we agree.

As for the Daemon Princes, this is another situation where 2 people could argue the intent of the wording of a rule till we are blue in the face and never agree on it. Another place were house rules will have to be established untill the developers FAQ a clarified rule. You should see the long ongoing arguement on Warseer regarding this. My recommendation is to either agree with your opponent ahead of time on what is allowed or if you cant come to agreement dice off.
 

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I don't think I'm getting you regarding the force weapon. From what I understand, you seem to be saying that they can use powers during the movement or shooting phases and still use the Force Weapon on their own assault phase. Which, to my mind, they cannot.

Let's say I've got three Tzeentch Sorcerers
One uses Warptime at the start of his turn, fires his pistol, then charges into assault. He may not use the Force Weapon ability on his turn (regardless of what phase he used Warptime in), but he may use it on the enemy turn during their assault phase.

The other uses Doombolt then charges in. Likewise, me may not use his Force Weapon this turn.

The third sorcerer decides not to use any powers, he just fires his pistol and charges. He *can* use his Force Weapon this turn. And he may use it again during the enemy's assault phase.

If I've misread you, I apologize.

As for the shooting...I think we both have a fairly good RAW footing. Neither one of us is arguing intent or trying to come up with 'common sense' changes. The rules would seem to support us both, depending on how you read them to apply. So yeah, this is a pretty much pointless go-round that's best discussed before the game.

Though, frankly, the point is pretty much moot since Warptime + any other power is a far better choice than any two shooting powers, as far as DPs are concerned ;-)
 
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