[I_am_a_Spoon]

- "Fluff" Marines as IG Allies (in image format) *UPDATED May 12th*

Here are some basic "True Marine" characteristic (and weapon) changes that my mates and I are working on atm. I think they're fair enough, and give an accurate representation of fluffy marines without making them ridiculously OP. I tried posting them on DakkaDakka, but aside from a few good suggestions, the thread devolved into arguments over fluff interpretation... gah...

:suicide:

Anyway, hopefully I'll have more luck here... tell me what you think so far! Any unforeseen complications or balancing side-effects that you can make out? Overpowered? Any criticisms, suggestions, or advice at all?



Ok, so the following squads will count as allies for Imperial Guard armies. Tactical, Assault, Scout and Terminator squads can be taken by IG players as Elites choices, and if at least two full Space Marine squads are taken as Elites, then a Captain may be taken as a second HQ choice.

They can take whichever transport options are allowed in the SM codex, and all unmodified weapon and wargear profiles are from the SM codex too.

Note that the artwork isn't mine, I just decided to throw in some awesome stuff I googled for decoration :

Tactical Combat Squad:

Assault Combat Squad:

Scout Combat Squad:

Terminator Fire Team:

Captain:

Here are some custom weapon stats and wargear/special rules. We'll be applying these modified weapon profiles to every faction that uses them (if applicable), so we'll be shifting around point costs and stuff for other armies too:

At the moment, Marines are effective against medium/heavy infantry, and can even tackle MCs with a little luck. They suck against cheap hordes though... just can't put out enough firepower to win back their points before they die.

Tacticals/Scouts sort of make up for this with Flamers, Heavy Bolters and Auxiliary GLs (on Vet. Sergeants), and Assault Marines are able to dish out a fair number of wounds to an assaulting Zerg-rush or Guard blob (especially with a Flamer), but quickly end up overwhelmed before they can make back their points. Terminators are pretty good all round (with Power Weapons, Assault Cannons, BS5 Cyclones and the new, improved Storm Bolters), but they move slowly at times, and every loss is a big deal. Just the way they should be... ~8)

I like the Toughness bonus provided by Terminator armour, as it counter-balances the Slow and Purposeful USR pretty well, but provides important extra protection against Instant Death.




Major changes, as of most recent update :

1) Reduced the Captain's Wounds, and removed Eternal Warrior (making him more of a glass cannon).
2) Removed Strength bonuses from armour.
3) Plenty of extra (and new) wargear and upgrade options, to allow for more varied potential weapon load-outs.





So, what do you think? Accurate enough? Would you want to play with or against Marines using these rules?

 

[DivineArchitect]

im not sure about the termies..or the captian as hq surely that would make the guardsmen and addition to a space marine army?

do like the hole 5 man squads as elites though, its something i'd try out givin the chance.

 

[I_am_a_Spoon]

Ok, fixed the Captain. He can now only be taken as a second HQ.

What's wrong with the Termies though? I wanna know what you think.

 

[Scathainn]

This is a bit of a random question but where did you get the template for your pictures?

I think that could look good with the Black Templars update I'm writing.

 

[DivineArchitect]

well from my point of view, if your going for the fluffy side of things i dont see space marines wasting termies on the guardsmen.... i mean they're the elite of most chapters,and often space marines view guardsmen as being there to die.

i also think its the main rule that would disuade other people from letting you use them. its works from the kinda.,..well were marines we should probably help them in the name of the emperor...but not " lets give em some termies really help out our slightly less derserved yet equal battle brothers".. :/ just my opinion however i do love the idea of marines with IG..perhaps loose the main options and have a rino....with assault marines as a kind of rapid response/help/killteam style addition?

 

[wombat_tree]

You've said that power armour gives +1 strength, does this mean that a Tactical Marine has 6 strength or is the extra strength included in the profile? Generally they seem like good rules but I'm not such a fan of 'resistant to toxins', it just seems a bit too powerful. Perhaps modifying the required roll by 1 would be better?

 

[Takizuchi]

Yeah im going to have to agree with the dropping of the termies. and the captain is a bit iffy also in my book, but the rest of them are great. I would love to deploy marines with my IG, and with the fluff for my IG army, these rules would fit in with them perfectly.

 

[I_am_a_Spoon]

This is a bit of a random question but where did you get the template for your pictures?

I think that could look good with the Black Templars update I'm writing.

No template mate, just messed around for a while in Paint.NET. :victory:

well from my point of view, if your going for the fluffy side of things i dont see space marines wasting termies on the guardsmen.... i mean they're the elite of most chapters,and often space marines view guardsmen as being there to die.

i also think its the main rule that would disuade other people from letting you use them. its works from the kinda.,..well were marines we should probably help them in the name of the emperor...but not " lets give em some termies really help out our slightly less derserved yet equal battle brothers".. :/ just my opinion however i do love the idea of marines with IG..

Small detachments of Marines are often deployed to multiple battlefields, right? I figured that since Space Marines often operate in small groups, why not represent that on the tabletop?

I'm also assuming that a Chapter wouldn't hesitate to deploy a small contingent of Marines to aid allies forces, in order to "ensure" an Imperial victory. Maybe it just represents independently-operating Marine and Guard forces working together, with a mutual goal? Who knows?

Like you said though, I think they work ok in terms of gameplay. I never really thought about why Marines would even be helping... =P

perhaps loose the main options and have a rino....with assault marines as a kind of rapid response/help/killteam style addition?

So... a single, decked-out squad? With different "specialists" as squadmembers?

You've said that power armour gives +1 strength, does this mean that a Tactical Marine has 6 strength or is the extra strength included in the profile?

Nah, the bonus is already included. That's why Scouts are only S4.

I might remove the bonus anyway... is S5 a bit much, do you think?

Generally they seem like good rules but I'm not such a fan of 'resistant to toxins', it just seems a bit too powerful. Perhaps modifying the required roll by 1 would be better?

With a re-roll though, deadlier toxins have a greater chance of causing a wound, and less lethal toxins are less likely to wound.

For example, with a re-roll, 2+ toxins have a 69.5% chance to wound. With a -1 modifier, they'd have a 66.66*% chance to wound.

Conversely, a 5+ poison would have an 11.11*% chance with a re-roll, as opposed to a 16.66*% chance with a modifier.

Basically, with the re-roll, deadlier poisons are deadlier, and weaker poisons are weaker.

Yeah im going to have to agree with the dropping of the termies. and the captain is a bit iffy also in my book, but the rest of them are great. I would love to deploy marines with my IG, and with the fluff for my IG army, these rules would fit in with them perfectly.

I thought about that too, but then I figured "why not?". Captains aren't always leading entire companies on the battlefield (it's actually really rare for an entire company to be deployed at once), and might decide to lead a small strike team on an important mission. Terminators too... Chapter veterans wouldn't be "saved for a rainy day", but deployed whenever possible due to their superior skills, extensive combat experience and proven reliability.

Dunno... I didn't really think about the context too much... :laugh:

 

[DivineArchitect]

how about limiting captains and termies for anything over 2kpoint armies? just termies is a 1K point with IG is abit iffy?

 

[I_am_a_Spoon]

Well, the Captain already requires that you have at least 2 full squads first... but you don't think that Captains or Terminators should be allowed in any list under 2k points?

 

[I_am_a_Spoon]

Fairly big update to OP!

 

[docgeo]

Hey,

First I really like the effort and creativity you put into this!! With the terminators I would change the 5T back to 4T and delet the meta bombs...they have powerfists and chainfist upgrades available.

Keep up the great work,
Doc

 

[I_am_a_Spoon]

Cheers doc.

As for the T5 Termie armour, its there to prevent ID. Too overpowered though, do you think?...

 

[kiro the avenger!]

my only problem with this is that since you've upgraded there weapons tau have gone out the window!!!
With your str5 AP5 rending-6" more range is nowhere near as good as rending!!!!

 

[Jormungandr]

my only problem with this is that since you've upgraded there weapons tau have gone out the window!!!
With your str5 AP5 rending-6" more range is nowhere near as good as rending!!!!

Yeah, even considering their small numbers as an elite unit, the weapons are somewhat OP.

 

[I_am_a_Spoon]

my only problem with this is that since you've upgraded there weapons tau have gone out the window!!!
With your str5 AP5 rending-6" more range is nowhere near as good as rending!!!!

I did take Pulse weaponry into consideration, but figured that even though Boltguns can (potentially) cause more damage, the Tau can field 4 of them for less than the price of a single Marine (or 2 for less than a Scout, who can't advance and fire at the Tau anyway).

Yeah, even considering their small numbers as an elite unit, the weapons are somewhat OP.

I did try to adhere to GW and BL descriptions though, and checked out Lexicanum too.

Do you mean OP in terms of canon, or gameplay? I actually thought they fit both criteria pretty well at the moment, but then again, I'm no expert. :grin:




Of course, I'd be happy to listen to suggestions from either of you.







EDIT: So, anything else I should take a look at?

PS: Just put up a related thread for IG... =P