Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner
1 - 20 of 58 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
326 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Alright, we all know that 40k fluff is inconsistent and unreliable. I think a lot of it is easy to overlook, like minor details being different in two books by different authors that have some overlap. But some of it is just frustratingly contradictory. I was wondering what examples people had of fluff contradictions that just drive you crazy.

I just finished reading Mechanicum, the first full length novel I've finished from BL (I tried a couple others, but they obviously should have been short stories that just repeated boring facts and observations to fill pages). It has really bugged me how assassins are shown in the lore. I heard of a battle where 400 SM lead a frontal assault on an assassin enclave of some sort of 100 assassins, and die to all but the last man. It irritates me that just well-trained people are shown as being so far superior to genetically and mechanically engineered superhuman soldiers so consistently.

I also remember reading the Tyranid codex when I tried getting into the game a long time ago, and got annoyed by their descriptions of the Tyranid invasions, saying the first one was something like 200 years ago and no one really knows anything about it because the records were lost. This does not add up since there are SM dicking around through space still who are WAY older than that!

Another one that bugged me was reading somewhere that if the Emperor dies, humanity will have a fall like that of the Eldar, but the new "eye of terror" from it would consume the whole galaxy, since the Imperium is bigger than the Eldar empire was. How does that make sense? Eldar were undisputed for 60 million years, and they couldn't conquer a mostly empty galaxy, but the Imperium did it in 2-300 years? No fucking way.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22 Posts
Eversor Assassins have been really disappointing.

You expect something like a cross between the Tasmanian Devil and The Flash, a blur of death leaving hundreds of corpses behind and in BL lit you end up with an angry bloke that may or may not be able to take down a space marine. The last one I read about of got stopped by a few hive gangers, pathetic.
 

·
Critique for da CriticGod
Joined
·
3,351 Posts
As a longtime player (24 years ish) the fluff has always been inconsistent and novels have always departed to some degree from the tone and quality of the rulebook fluff text.

As you say, I suspect that got worse not better with the introduction of Black Library. Specifically because there are now so many more cooks in the kitchen.

The other thing to keep in mind is superlative use. The Warhammer universe is full of characters described as the "most powerful", "the most good", "the most evil", etc. Qualitatively describing so many different groups in such strong "epic" language naturally leads to a degree of inflation. I mean that both in terms of exaggeration and in scope creep, where one all powerful thing is more powerful than the last all powerful thing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,215 Posts
It irritates me that just well-trained people are shown as being so far superior to genetically and mechanically engineered superhuman soldiers so consistently.
I believe Talos from Soulhunter nailed this one. Basically assassins are designed to do one thing and that's to kill. They're very effective at that.

Astartes are designed to be soldiers. It's a nuance difference but basically if you need someone killed, sign up an assassin. If you want a world taken by force on a battlefield, ring up a Space Marine.

I also remember reading the Tyranid codex when I tried getting into the game a long time ago, and got annoyed by their descriptions of the Tyranid invasions, saying the first one was something like 200 years ago and no one really knows anything about it because the records were lost. This does not add up since there are SM dicking around through space still who are WAY older than that!
The record was "lost" because all the people that knew anything about the Tyranids got nommed up. No one to report means no one else gets to know about it.

Another one that bugged me was reading somewhere that if the Emperor dies, humanity will have a fall like that of the Eldar, but the new "eye of terror" from it would consume the whole galaxy, since the Imperium is bigger than the Eldar empire was. How does that make sense? Eldar were undisputed for 60 million years, and they couldn't conquer a mostly empty galaxy, but the Imperium did it in 2-300 years? No fucking way.
Uhh...where did you read this? the Imperium is very likely much smaller (in terms of planets controlled) than the old Eldar empire.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,195 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyriks
Another one that bugged me was reading somewhere that if the Emperor dies, humanity will have a fall like that of the Eldar, but the new "eye of terror" from it would consume the whole galaxy, since the Imperium is bigger than the Eldar empire was. How does that make sense? Eldar were undisputed for 60 million years, and they couldn't conquer a mostly empty galaxy, but the Imperium did it in 2-300 years? No fucking way.

Uhh...where did you read this? the Imperium is very likely much smaller (in terms of planets controlled) than the old Eldar empire.
It might be a mix of two pieces of fluff here. I Think I have red that if the Emperor dies it will create a second Eye. The other piece would be that if the Pilars/Pylons on Cadia where destroyed the Eye of Terror would grow to engulf the galaxy.
 

·
The Emperor Protects
Joined
·
5,262 Posts
Almost the entirety of the Damocles and Mont'ka campaign books fluff. It's just so fucking shit. Fire warriors out stealthing Raven Guard. Hundreds of Space Marines being killed in the opening moments of the battle. I'm pretty sure if you read and tallied up both books kills, the entire Raven Guard and White Scars chapter were killed many times over. Even the RG chapter master for fucks sake. And at the end of it the Raven Guard are just like 'Well, we're needed elsewhere in other fights', whereas they pretty much lost their entire chapter strength are would be critically endangered.

So yeah, it bugs me when authors write stuff like that to show how powerful and amazing the Tau are(or how much they love them in anycase), without really thinking about the numbers of casualties they are writing about. It's clear the writer did not even begin to think of how a chapter is only 1000 marines and just throws random casualty numbers out with no thought.

The horrendous and obvious bias to the Tau throughout the whole book is just awful. Even by GW standards.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
326 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Almost the entirety of the Damocles and Mont'ka campaign books fluff. It's just so fucking shit. Fire warriors out stealthing Raven Guard. Hundreds of Space Marines being killed in the opening moments of the battle. I'm pretty sure if you read and tallied up both books kills, the entire Raven Guard and White Scars chapter were killed many times over. Even the RG chapter master for fucks sake. And at the end of it the Raven Guard are just like 'Well, we're needed elsewhere in other fights', whereas they pretty much lost their entire chapter strength are would be critically endangered.

So yeah, it bugs me when authors write stuff like that to show how powerful and amazing the Tau are(or how much they love them in anycase), without really thinking about the numbers of casualties they are writing about. It's clear the writer did not even begin to think of how a chapter is only 1000 marines and just throws random casualty numbers out with no thought.

The horrendous and obvious bias to the Tau throughout the whole book is just awful. Even by GW standards.
The fact that the Tau are even competing with other races bugs me. It is said over and over that their faster than light travel blows, because it doesn't involve the Warp. So, for any other race, eliminating them would be easy, even with a relatively small force. If someone attacks them, as soon as reinforcements show up, you Warp away, and those reinforcements are stuck at the first site. They would never be able to keep up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
326 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
It might be a mix of two pieces of fluff here. I Think I have red that if the Emperor dies it will create a second Eye. The other piece would be that if the Pilars/Pylons on Cadia where destroyed the Eye of Terror would grow to engulf the galaxy.
I have no idea what pylons on Cadia are so that's not what I was thinking of. It would have either been one of the fluff pieces in a codex or a quote I found on the 40k wiki. It's possible the quote was a character's theory and not a fact, but the idea was that the eye of terror marks the boundaries of the Eldar empire, and the Imperium extends across the whole galaxy (though much more of it is contested than for the Eldar).

And as for the record being lost due to no survivors, there were explicitly said to have been survivors.
 

·
The Emperor Protects
Joined
·
5,262 Posts
The fact that the Tau are even competing with other races bugs me. It is said over and over that their faster than light travel blows, because it doesn't involve the Warp. So, for any other race, eliminating them would be easy, even with a relatively small force. If someone attacks them, as soon as reinforcements show up, you Warp away, and those reinforcements are stuck at the first site. They would never be able to keep up.
The Imperium literally sets the Damocles Gulf on fire at its conclusion, crippling the Tau and setting back their expansion immensely. Why not just keep exterminating their worlds.
 

·
Dazed and confused.
Joined
·
8,496 Posts
When there are contradictions across several books, but considering the sheer amount of fluff, and number of different writers, it's to be expected.

However, the one that annoyed me most was in the same book. In the first SW codex if said that Ulrik the Slayer was a wolf guard during the first battle of Armageddon (of which overall command was held by Great Wolf Logan Grimnar), and afterwards turned down becoming a Wolf Lord to become a Wolf Priest instead. However, in Grimnar's entry it stated that it was Ulrik as a Wolf Priest that discovered Grimnar and brought him into the chapter. I think this one actually carried across into the next codex as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,215 Posts
I have no idea what pylons on Cadia are so that's not what I was thinking of. It would have either been one of the fluff pieces in a codex or a quote I found on the 40k wiki. It's possible the quote was a character's theory and not a fact, but the idea was that the eye of terror marks the boundaries of the Eldar empire, and the Imperium extends across the whole galaxy (though much more of it is contested than for the Eldar).

And as for the record being lost due to no survivors, there were explicitly said to have been survivors.
Stay away from the Wikia. The Lex is using pretty safe, but before "learning" anything, I would look up the original sources and read those before adding it to my fluff knowledge.

And as for the record being lost due to no survivors, there were explicitly said to have been survivors.
Uh...what? How? Rereading the fluff you're off a couple of points it seems to me.

Everyone on Tyran died. Inquisitor Kryptman was able to find Magos Varnak’s data-codex with all the information he could put into before he got nommed like everyone else.

From there...I don't see anything about the record for Tyranids being lost from the entirety of the Imperium. Could you cite your source that states so?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
326 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
Uh...what? How? Rereading the fluff you're off a couple of points it seems to me.

Everyone on Tyran died. Inquisitor Kryptman was able to find Magos Varnak’s data-codex with all the information he could put into before he got nommed like everyone else.

From there...I don't see anything about the record for Tyranids being lost from the entirety of the Imperium. Could you cite your source that states so?
It would have been either the SM codex or BRB from 4th/5th. One of them referenced a marine who had survived fighting the Tyranids at Tyran.

I could have somehow mixed something up, but I remember reading it as a brand new player and being concerned about such an obvious error popping up so quickly.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,215 Posts
It would have been either the SM codex or BRB from 4th/5th. One of them referenced a marine who had survived fighting the Tyranids at Tyran.

I could have somehow mixed something up, but I remember reading it as a brand new player and being concerned about such an obvious error popping up so quickly.
Hive Fleet Behemoth ate Tyran and eventually made its way to Ultramar where the Ultramarines broke its back.

There were no space marines on Tyran when it was devoured.

The Blood Angels purged a space hulk with genestealers 150 years before Tyran. They didn't pay it any particular attention and just figured it one of the million other Xenos in the galaxy to be purged. Since the genestealers probably looked very different from the Tyranids that assaulted Tyran, the connection wasn't immediately obvious.

Edit: Whoops, forgot to address your other question

but the idea was that the eye of terror marks the boundaries of the Eldar empire, and the Imperium extends across the whole galaxy (though much more of it is contested than for the Eldar).
The Eye of Terror does not encompass the entirety of the former Eldar empire. It's only a tiny fraction of it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
326 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Whoops, forgot to address your other question

The Eye of Terror does not encompass the entirety of the former Eldar empire. It's only a tiny fraction of it.
I'm not asking questions, I'm pointing out inconsistencies with the story, as we are given it.

Here's a screenshot from the last Eldar codex. It says clearly that the eye of Terror is the entirety of the old Eldar empire.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,215 Posts
I'm not asking questions, I'm pointing out inconsistencies with the story, as we are given it.

Here's a screenshot from the last Eldar codex. It says clearly that the eye of Terror is the entirety of the old Eldar empire.
I'm guessing you're reading to "of old". I'm sure there are some interpretations--likely one that you hold, too--that you believe "of old" means the entirety of the old empire. That's not necessarily the case.

It could mean the oldest portions of their empire. The original center.

The portions on the Exodites in the codex offer a possible answer.

1. The Exodites flee to "found colony worlds on the fringes of the Eldar empire." (pg. 7)

2. The Exodites "settled in the furthest reaches of the galaxy". (pg. 20)

Therefore we know that the Eldar empire spread to the "furthest reaches of the galaxy".

It's easy to draw conclusions based on limited information. English is not the most specific of languages, so there's often times some wiggle room in interpretation.

Did the original author intend this? Good question, but we can piece together enough to make it all make sense.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
326 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I'm guessing you're reading to "of old". I'm sure there are some interpretations--likely one that you hold, too--that you believe "of old" means the entirety of the old empire. That's not necessarily the case.

It could mean the oldest portions of their empire. The original center.
There's literally nothing in the context to indicate that, and everything indicates that they mean the empire as of the time of the fall, since that is the only time that is being discussed. The quotes you supplied only enforce my point - that the fluff is inconsistent. Sure, we can mentally squint until the text adds up, but that's not the point of the thread. It's to complain about the fact that we have to do that in the first place.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,215 Posts
There's literally nothing in the context to indicate that, and everything indicates that they mean the empire as of the time of the fall, since that is the only time that is being discussed. The quotes you supplied only enforce my point - that the fluff is inconsistent. Sure, we can mentally squint until the text adds up, but that's not the point of the thread. It's to complain about the fact that we have to do that in the first place.
That's the point. If there two interpretations of the fluff--one that considers the "empire of old" the entirety or one that considers it only the oldest portion of the empire (both potentially valid)--and then there's another entry that states parts of the empire had not fallen...

If you want to stick to your initial interpretation of the fluff that's your decision. Saying it contradicts itself when there are ways to make it work...sure, that's your choice, too.

I'd suggest trying to be a bit more flexible. It's almost fun trying to make this tapestry of 100 different weavers into some coherent piece of work.

Minus stuff from Ben Counter and Goto. I pretend they don't exist and I sleep much better at night.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
326 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
That's the point. If there two interpretations of the fluff--one that considers the "empire of old" the entirety or one that considers it only the oldest portion of the empire (both potentially valid)--and then there's another entry that states parts of the empire had not fallen...

If you want to stick to your initial interpretation of the fluff that's your decision. Saying it contradicts itself when there are ways to make it work...sure, that's your choice, too.

I'd suggest trying to be a bit more flexible. It's almost fun trying to make this tapestry of 100 different weavers into some coherent piece of work.

Minus stuff from Ben Counter and Goto. I pretend they don't exist and I sleep much better at night.
Just because an interpretation exists doesn't make it valid. The text itself doesn't indicate in any way that it is making a distinction between the Eldar at the time of the fall and some unstated point further back than that. It is talking about the empire at the time of the fall before that point and after that point. I could interpret that to mean the empire ten years ago, but there's no justification for it. If the author meant to indicate that this was the empire from some unstated point before the fall, they did a terrible job communicating that. Either way, bad writing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,215 Posts
Just because an interpretation exists doesn't make it valid. The text itself doesn't indicate in any way that it is making a distinction between the Eldar at the time of the fall and some unstated point further back than that. It is talking about the empire at the time of the fall before that point and after that point. I could interpret that to mean the empire ten years ago, but there's no justification for it. If the author meant to indicate that this was the empire from some unstated point before the fall, they did a terrible job communicating that. Either way, bad writing.
I wish I knew more about the Eldar (I think they're sorta boring, to be honest), but I'm looking at other sources...

The DE codex says that only the epicentre of the Eldar empire was swallowed by the Eye of Terror.

If you can get over the "realms of old" part as not meaning the entirety of the Eldar empire (which may or may not be the case) everything else falls in line. In fact, other pieces of the fluff argue against it, since the webway, part of the Eldar empire, was not enveloped, hence the Dark Eldar's survival.

/shrug Take it as you will. I'm clearly not going to change your mind, anyway.

So any other issues you'd like to chat about?
 
1 - 20 of 58 Posts
Top