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Discussion Starter #1
The new Salamanders have a rule stating that they reroll all saving throws from weapons that are flamer weapons as described in the Rule Book. I looked in the rule book and it listed a lot of different weapons but many weren't listed that were not listed because the new codexes were not out when the rule book was released. Do you think that the helldrakes flame attack would be under that category?
 

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Why would it? There is no Salamander Heldrakes.

Edit: I fail at reading.

In regards to your question, unless they FAQ it your stuck with only the BRB flamees.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
heh, I think I typed what I was asking poorly, The new salamander rule says that they reroll failed saves when attacked by flamer weapons as defined by the main rule book. So I am not asking if they twin link heldrakes, I am asking if Heldrakes would be considered a flamer weapon. So say a heldrake flames a command squad with storm shields would they reroll their failed saves against it.
 

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As I said in edit, until they FAQ saying otherwise, you are stuck with what is listed under the BRB Flamer entry.
 

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Not sure, the Heldrake's baleflamer is not a traditional 'flamer'.

You also have the doom sirens, and some other weapons with spray templates in the newer dexs.

I would say no but this is GW so who knows.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Im completely biased as Salamanders was my first army and I am excited to pick them up again, but I think that it should be since the name has a flamer in it :) We will see!
 

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The rule says "as defined" in the rulebook, not "as listed". So I'd be tempted to suggest that any weapon that falls within the general characteristics of a flamer in the rulebook would be classed a "flamer".

If it obviously shoots flames of some type I'd be saying "yep" to the re-rols.
 

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As I said I don't think it is about the list but more about the definition, short range, chemicals that ignite etc

The Necron Gauntlet of Fire isn't listed but it's pretty obviously a flamer.
 

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My point was the baleflamer has extra rules. It's not just a basic flamer.
 

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My point was the baleflamer has extra rules. It's not just a basic flamer.
I don't see why that would matter.

I'd also be tempted to say the re-rolls apply to Soul Blaze as well, but that would definitely need an FAQ particularly if there is a non flamer weapon that has Soul Blaze.
 

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Because if they do not have something like that in the BRB it is not 'as described'. The way your reading it anytime a spray template is used they could reroll.
 

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It's "as defined" and I don't see additional special rules changing the basic definition. There are no twin-linked flamer noted either.
 

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Alright then, we are going off the fluff text definition then?

BRB pg 56
Flamers are short-ranged weapons that spew out highly volatile clouds of liquid chemicals that ignite on contact with air. They are primarily used to scour the enemy from defended positions, as walls are no defense against blasts of superheated vapour.

CSM pg 65
Baleflamer
Daemon Engines are sometimes equipped with projector muzzles that allow them to heave out great gouts of the Daemon fire rolling inside their chests. The burning ichor that rains down upon their prey ignites flesh and soul alike.


Problem with this is your are using a fluff definition to apply rules. It is why I said that it is only the items on the list. The newer codexs reference that list for the stats and whatnot in terms of what they are. The same page the Baleflamer is on also has a box at the top that states that you need to reference the BRB for the full rules of the common weapons found across multiple dexs. Included in this box list is the Flamer and Heavy flamer. Page 120 of the new SM dex has the same box it includes the Flamer, Flamestorm Cannon and the Heavy flamer. All on that list in the BRB......
 

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The problem is that the BRB offers no "definition" of a Flamer weapon, only a list of what it encompasses. I'd say you're stuck with only those until there's an FAQ for the SM Sally rules or the Baleflamer itself.
 

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RAW, you seem stuck until an FAQ.
RAI, I think you ought to be able to take invulns and would willingly play that way with my Chaos. Depends on your opponent, really. Or the ruling of your FLGS owner/rules guru.
 

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If they wanted it to include weapons they wouldve listed it. Look at the Avatar of Khaine's rules. He ignores wounds from flamers, meltas, AND all weapons with the Soul Blaze special rule.

Salamanders are known for handling and dealing with fire. This is not the same as Daemonic energies that happen to use the same template.
 

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Well I'll point out again that the rule says "as defined" not "as listed".

Of course the "fluff" is what defines an item that's what it is there for. You can't simply discount everything that is written written a rule outside of the bold.
The quotes from scoze show that the Baleflamer fits the defintion pretty well.
"The burning ichor that rains down upon their prey ignites flesh and soul alike." = "highly volatile clouds of liquid chemicals that ignite on contact with air"
The Necron Heat Ray gets a guernsey without even throwing out liquids, simply heat so it's pretty obvious there is a fair amount of latitude with the definition of a flamer.

The reference to the rulebook in the box in the Codex has little relevance here, it's simply a mechanism to reduce the number of re-writes of rules.
A new type of flamer being detailed in a Codex isn't precluded from being a flamer simply because it isn't listed in the rulebook.
 
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