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I have quick questions but its hard to explain, so bare with me...

Can I flame enemy units in close combat if I target another unit not engaged, as in 2 squads near each other, one unit is in hand to hand and the other unit is standing around free to fire at? Obviously not hitting any of my units?
 

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The rules state three things:

Flame templates cannot TARGET models locked in combat.
The template must hit as many models in the target unit as possible.
No friendly models can be under the template.

As long as those three things are satisfied anyone under the template is hit, including incidental models, like those in combat or under invisibility...
 

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No, you cannot. "Locked in Combet" states that blast markers and templates may not be placed so that they cover ANY models locked in combat.
 

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No, you cannot.
Yup, you can. From the same section you just quoted, Locked In Combat pg. 47 BRB:

While blast markers and templates cannot be deliberately placed such that they cover any models locked in combat, they may end up scattering and will then cause hits on any unit they touch (friend and foes!) as normal.
This sets a precedent for templates being able to hit units locked in combat under situations where it is not deliberate and follows the rules for blast/template weapons. Moving on to Template Weapons, pg. 173 BRB (and this is in line with what psactionman is saying):

...place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the firing model and the rest of the template covers as many models in the target unit as possible, without touching any other friendly models (including other models from the firing model's unit).
This clearly states how to place a template weapon. If you're placing a template so that it doesn't touch any of your models, hits as many people in the unit you're targeting as it can and just so happens to touch enemy models (not your own) locked in combat: you can hit those models. It's a lot of stipulations for a template to get over, but it happens in games every now and again as Moriouce has pointed out from his readings of BatReps.
 

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Ntaw, You point it out yourself, the blast marker or template cannot be deliberately placed as to cover any model locked in combat but it can scatter. So when we get a weapon where the flamer template scatters (none that I'm aware of at this time), then it will be possible for a template to accidentally scatter onto a combat. Until then, my answer stands and is correct. The template (or blast marker) may not be delibately placed so as to cover ANY models locked in combat. In the conflict between the rules, 'must cover as many as possible' vs 'cannot cover locked', the cannot clause wins every time. We see this over and over in the rules, such as a unit that must assault but it just arrived from reserves. Can it assault? No. Why not? Because cannot overrules must.
 

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So what you're saying is that the template can not be placed (meaning shot not fired) if it is touching the base of the model firing and as many of the models possible in the target unit, and in doing so reaches beyond to touch a couple models locked in a combat?

The rulebook says you can't target a unit locked in combat, and you aren't.
 

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No, the rulebook says that the template "cannot be deliberately placed such that they cover any models locked in combat". See the difference between that and targeting the unit? BTW, the above cut-and-paste is from YOUR quote.
 

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I'll ask again since you didn't want to answer. You're saying you would deny your opponent the ability to shoot their weapon because a couple of people locked in combat might get hit by the edge of a template, despite the terms for firing a template weapon being met? I know what I quoted, it came out of the BRB and I typed it up. There's no need to get snide.
 

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I Agree with Mourice as well. All three conditions can be met and it could still cover,Unintentionally mind you, units "Locked in combat" while they are not the target unit, they are close to the target unit and partially in the way of the template.


Makes sense to me. I believe at this point an FAQ would be needed to clarify, as one point it means the unit cannot fire at their target because a few enemy units block the template (Which sounds hella abuse-able to make ultimate cover for your units with good positioning), or the enemy models caught in the blast also take the hit as they are unintentional targets, meaning they aren't the actual target, and no friendly unit is covered, and the target unit receives the majority of the coverage.
 

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No, the rulebook says that the template "cannot be deliberately placed such that they cover any models locked in combat". See the difference between that and targeting the unit? BTW, the above cut-and-paste is from YOUR quote.

But you don't 'deliberately' place the template, it just happens due to following the rules of placing it.

If the target squad kust where two minis close to the firerer and you could only hit one mini when placing the template then this could be settled. Mini A hit + minis locked in combat, Mini B hit + no minis in locked in combat. In this case you would have to fire at mini B since there is more options to 'hutting as many as possible'. Then it would be to deliberately place the template if he was to fire at Mini A.

Now be aware that BatReps ain't 100% true to the rules. I have seen quite a few on youtube and can only remember two in which this occured. Once there where no discussion. In the other the discussion happened mostly because one of the models in the CC where the firerer's own. They took it as a collateral damage.

So it is very uncommon that it happens and if you think it might happen take the discussion with your opponent before it happens.
 

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I'll ask again since you didn't want to answer. You're saying you would deny your opponent the ability to shoot their weapon because a couple of people locked in combat might get hit by the edge of a template, despite the terms for firing a template weapon being met? I know what I quoted, it came out of the BRB and I typed it up. There's no need to get snide.
Wasn't being 'snide', was just pointing out that you posted the rule that disallows placing the template over models locked in combat. And no, wouldn't 'deny' the opportunity, just wouldn't let him place it over models locked in combat.
 

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But you don't 'deliberately' place the template, it just happens due to following the rules of placing it.
What, your hand slipped while placing it? C'mon, you know what the 'deliberately there means. 'Cannot' trumps 'must', so you cannot place it over models locked in combat, even tho you must cover the most models possible in the target unit. No FAQ needed this one is clear (to me, at least). Been this way since 2rd edition (2nd was the last time we were allowed to fire into a combat) and I see nothing in the rules that changes it.
 

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And no, wouldn't 'deny' the opportunity, just wouldn't let him place it over models locked in combat.
So you would indeed deny your opponent the ability to shoot their weapon if that was the only way it could be placed, bearing in mind that sometimes there's only the one place for the template to be placed due to friendly models.
 

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So you would indeed deny your opponent the ability to shoot their weapon if that was the only way it could be placed, bearing in mind that sometimes there's only the one place for the template to be placed due to friendly models.
If it could not be placed without covering a model that was locked in hth, then yes, I would insist that they play by the rules and would deny them the shot. They should have planned and moved better.
 

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I know that many may consider this thread done, but I feel I have to weigh in.

The first part says "models cannot shoot at units locked in close combat". Easy to understand. Cannot target them, but doesn't rule out indirect fire.

Second part says that "While blast markers and *templates* cannot be deliberately placed such that they cover any models locked in combat, *they may end up there* after scattering and will then cause hits on any units they touch (friends and foes!) as normal"

That listed exceptions, and bearing in mind the starred parts, the rule for templates says "template covers as many models in the target unit as possible"

So essentially, the choice for the final place of the template may taken from us for maximum coverage, which is essentially a scatter, a non intentional move. And the point is it may not always be beneficial - '(friend or foes!)'

However, if I may give two examples:

Scenario 1
Option 1 covers 5 enemies
Option 2 covers 6 enemies and 2 models in a unit in close combat (friend or foe)

Scenario 2
Option 1 covers 6 enemies
Option 2 covers 6 enemies and 2 models in a unit in close combat (friend or foe)

In scenario 1, option 2 is correct. While I would prefer option 1, the template is automatically moved as per the rules, and it happens to cover the cc unit.

In scenario 2, option 1 is correct. You cannot opt to cover the cc unit if you can cover the same amount elsewhere.

The only reason I came to this conclusion is the starred parts earlier. Whilst picking a few lines out doesn't define a rule, it would have been omitted entirely from the exceptions if it were not possible at all. I think the hang up is that people try to abuse it by deliberately trying to flame a cc unit. But if that is where the template must be placed, you have no choice. And it can still hit friendlies this way!
 

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I know that many may consider this thread done, but I feel I have to weigh in.

The first part says "models cannot shoot at units locked in close combat". Easy to understand. Cannot target them, but doesn't rule out indirect fire.

Second part says that "While blast markers and *templates* cannot be deliberately placed such that they cover any models locked in combat, *they may end up there* after scattering and will then cause hits on any units they touch (friends and foes!) as normal"

That listed exceptions, and bearing in mind the starred parts, the rule for templates says "template covers as many models in the target unit as possible"

So essentially, the choice for the final place of the template may taken from us for maximum coverage, which is essentially a scatter, a non intentional move. And the point is it may not always be beneficial - '(friend or foes!)'

However, if I may give two examples:

Scenario 1
Option 1 covers 5 enemies
Option 2 covers 6 enemies and 2 models in a unit in close combat (friend or foe)

Scenario 2
Option 1 covers 6 enemies
Option 2 covers 6 enemies and 2 models in a unit in close combat (friend or foe)

In scenario 1, option 2 is correct. While I would prefer option 1, the template is automatically moved as per the rules, and it happens to cover the cc unit.

In scenario 2, option 1 is correct. You cannot opt to cover the cc unit if you can cover the same amount elsewhere.

The only reason I came to this conclusion is the starred parts earlier. Whilst picking a few lines out doesn't define a rule, it would have been omitted entirely from the exceptions if it were not possible at all. I think the hang up is that people try to abuse it by deliberately trying to flame a cc unit. But if that is where the template must be placed, you have no choice. And it can still hit friendlies this way!

You better explained what I was after in my previusly post. Good!
 

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The key here is "scatter" a template or blast can only go over units locked in CC if it scatters. That is the only way it can inadvertently hit a disallowed model.

Ntaw, I would definitely deny them the shot just like I would if they placed their Flamer equipped model in the middle of the unit so they couldn't fire without hitting a friendly.
 

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Ntaw, I would definitely deny them the shot just like I would if they placed their Flamer equipped model in the middle of the unit so they couldn't fire without hitting a friendly.
The second half of what you said violates the rules for placing templates explicitly, so yeah. Fully. I've disallowed my own shooting in that instance. Guess when I start playing at the local GW if they tell me different I'll have to go with it, but no one in my gaming group gives a crap. It's not that I don't see you point, I just don't get why they include templates in the sentence at all if it only addresses blast markers. Maybe poor editing on GW's part, whatever. I'm over it, and if I have made a house-rule that this is allowed because I have misconstrued the ruling then that is what I have done and I apologize for dragging down a rules thread because of it. Either way, there's enough information in this thread at this point that I don't need to continue flogging a dead horse.
 
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