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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have been at my gaming club for 6 months now and I have always played Eldar, I always won fairly easily. I got bored of being unbeaten so I swapped my Eldar for Space Marines, which I have some experience with 5th edition.

My first game using them was yesterday and I got beat and I got beat bad!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are space marines that rubbish or are Eldar over powered?

The dice were not in my favour but I won't use that as an excuse.

How do other people find marines in 7th when compared to other races out there?
 

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Herald of The Warp
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are Eldar over powered?
Yes.

Marines are fairly good to be honest - They have good and viable options for a all-around army and they seem to be fairing decent in the competitive setting as well. I have tried to play against lists that was horri-bad and lists that wiped me off the board. It all depends on the player.

Eldar on the other hand... Well let's just say they got a codex that set a entire new standard for good units and incredible army rules. The problem is not the Eldar codex, as it is a really well-written codex with good choices across the board - The problem is that the standard they set, didn't carry over to other armies.

Just my thoughts mind you :)
 

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I collect both eldar and space marines and I find that my eldar win a lot more battles than my space marines. I'd like to think I'm quiet experienced with both armies. Eldar imo, when there good, there very good. Space marines though are very meh.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
That's the feeling I got, Eldar are quite easy to get right. But I suppose the Marine victories are more rewarding... And I do love a challenge :)
 

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The game doesn't favour "all comers" lists particularly well - it works better with dedicated tasks, and min-maxed points options. All lists need to cater for all eventualities, but looking at Eldar, whose units, by their very definition, are dedicated to one particular job, this problem is exacerbated and highlighted even more.

Take a look at it this way. Space Marines Tactical Squads are designed to be able to take on any foe the enemies of the Imperium can throw against them - equipped with Bolters, they're extremely effective, and with access to weapons like Lascannons and Missile Launchers, they can take down Monsters and Tanks, and special weapons like Plasma guns lets them be a massive threat even to things like Terminators, or Ork Nobz. That's fine, and perfect from a fluff perspective, similar to how soldiers for today are equipped with rifles, and have access to LMG's, and rockets to deal with harder threats.

However, from a gaming point of view, that "all comers" squad is wasting half of its potential. Without access to split firing, as can happen in real life, that Lascannon is wasted shooting at a horde of hormagaunts while the rest of the squad guns them down, or those bolters just ping harmlessly off the front armour of a land raider.

So, that means that tactical squad's strengths aren't really all that "tactical" or flexible, and can only really be built in one particular format - which takes us back to the days of 3rd and 4th edition, when squads were no larger than 5 men, and took Lascannon and Plasma gun to maximise that option. Now we're "incentivized" to take more marines due to the points/model tax, which channels them into min-maxing a particular squad into anti-infantry purely, which tends to limit them to Heavy Bolter or Missile Launcher (primarily using Frags, although it can, should opportunity arise, use Kraks, but the difficulty of penetrating and causing adequate damage is almost a nonentity), with a Flamer or Plasma. If they're targeting heavy armour they're doing it wrong.

So, on paper, they're flexible, but in the game meta, they're limited to anti-infantry duty, where their S4 AP5 Rapid Fire weapons are somewhat effective. Now, compare that to Eldar, who have units who are dedicated to anti-infantry - either as Dark Reapers, or Warp Spiders with Rending S6 Assault 2 and a Teleport to get close. Eldar do dedicated jobs better than units which are "balanced" to doing multi-task jobs.

If you need armour destroying in a Space Marine army, you have access to several options - usually Devastator Lascannon squads, TriPlas Predators, MeltaDreads in Pods, or Sternguards in squads with Combi-Melta. Compare that to Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent with Scatter Lasers to ensure they get there. 5 Fire Dragons costs 110pts. For anti infantry, you have Warp Spiders at 190pts, which isn't far off the same cost as the tactical squad - but the Tac Squad is putting out 16 S4 AP5 shots, Flamer and a S4 AP5 Small Blast while the Warp Spiders are churning out 20 S6 Quasi-Rending shots for roughly the same cost.

Yes, there are other mitigating factors, but a combination of speed, low points costs, effective transport vehicles, and psychic powers means that Eldar are better doing dedicated tasks, and Marines can only hope to catch up.



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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
From a gaming point of view, that "all comers" squad is wasting half of its potential.
I think you hit the nail on the head with Marines, from a fluff point of view, they are a very flexible unit but in reality that versatility means nothing when you can only shoot at one target.

Most armies give you the option to be field lots of units (hordes) like nids and orks or on the other scale you have a very elite list like Chaos or Grey Knights. With this you can make your horde or elites shooty of fighty

with marines I feel you are jack of all trades but master of none...
 

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Given the "any unit is scoring"rulesl that's available these days, the Tactical Squad, IMHO, is dead. In my games I've noticed that my Scouts are serving a far better role due to their abilities to move in and around the table at the start of the game and my Veteran units like Sternguard & Vanguard are moping the floors wherever they go. Vanguard units with Kantor having joined them are a problem with the attacks in CC they're producing(on the charge) and Sternguard are a ranged Swiss Army Knife of Special Issue Ammo and Combis. Not to mention I'm usually getting my units in range by way of Drop Pods in low point games and Landraiders in higher ones.
Eldar and most other armies are an issue for the Tactical squad, but, they're hardly the only unit worth taking
 

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Now, compare that to Eldar, who have units who are dedicated to anti-infantry - either as Dark Reapers, or Warp Spiders with Rending S6 Assault 2 and a Teleport to get close.
But bear in mind that those Warp Spiders have a rule that specifically makes them S7 against tank (or low-I) enemies--meaning they also excel in the role of light anti-tank. And it's not just that they have a teleport, but also Battle Focus--not only are they better at shooting than a normal infantry squad, they're also 3-4x as fast. And they have 3+ armor, like Marines, so practically their only downsides are the 1 lower Toughness and that they don't have ATSKNF. For roughly the same cost.

Given the "any unit is scoring"rulesl that's available these days, the Tactical Squad, IMHO, is dead.
I've seen a compelling argument that with Rhinos and Combat Squads, you have 3 Objective Secured scoring units there that mean opponents have to split their fire to a number of different targets--if they're running a list reliant on a few MCs or a Deathstar, or something, they won't be able to drag all those units off of objectives too easily, especially in a Maelstrom mission where you can be scoring points all game, rather than having to hold out until the very end.

...still, none of those 3 OS units are very tough.
 

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Given the "any unit is scoring"rulesl that's available these days, the Tactical Squad, IMHO, is dead.
Mossy has it right. Objective Secured is a massive boon to armies that favour Troops and Transports over Elites, Fast Attack, or Heavy support. Absolutely having to do critical damage to multiple units (including some that have ATSKNF, who bounce back quickly) can be a daunting task even if you're well equipped. It's a swarm tactic, individually weak but together pose a threat. I've had a OS Rhino Tank Shock a squad off an Objective at the end of Turn 5 before, lost the game because of it despite still being close enough to contest: my squad didn't have OS.
 

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I counter the argument that the Tac squad is dead by pointing out that unlike the Scout Squad, they are massively more survivable, maneuverable, and capable of putting out more damage than an equivalent points of Scouts. Running Raven Guard often sees me with 20 Tac Marines on the table, either in Rhinos or Drop Pods and both focusing on the same area of the battlefield. That plus Sternguard, Devs, Min/Maxed ASM and Bikes means that there's a LOT of power armour on the field, and the Tacs are able to support the other units in whatever way is necessary - whether that's adding 20-30 S4 attacks to an assault, a Powerfist/Meltabomb for a target of opportunity, or simply hiding on 3 separate Objectives with one FOC choice.

Marines require more effort than Eldar to win, in some ways. You need to practise with your choice of Chapter Tactics and write a list that accomodates them well.


@Vaz the specialisation of the Eldar can be a hinderance as much as it is a help - the only reason they're getting away with it at the moment is because several key units are viciously undercosted, and they're the units that are most flexible - Serpents, Spiders and Knights are equally good at murdering infantry or vehicles and are the worst offenders. If Banshees were better, you still wouldn't see them in lists because they can only do one thing. As someone who played Eldar all through 3rd-5th I can tell you that specialization WITHOUT flexibility was an awful way to run an army - for example if your opponent managed to kill your Fire Dragons you had literally nothing else in the codex to deal with AV14 or ID-vulnerable T4 Multiwounds like Paladins or Nobz.
 

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Thus far for me, my Scouts (which I failed to previously mention are 5 man Sniper/Missile units) have given me far better wins than my Tactical Squads have done in my past 10+ games in the month or move I've been playing on a regular basis. That would be why I put the IMHO after the "Tactical Squads are dead". I personally can't see spending points on them any longer while my current set up is working rather well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thus far for me, my Scouts (which I failed to previously mention are 5 man Sniper/Missile units) have given me far better wins than my Tactical Squads have done in my past 10+ games in the month or move I've been playing on a regular basis. That would be why I put the IMHO after the "Tactical Squads are dead". I personally can't see spending points on them any longer while my current set up is working rather well.
Funnily enough I've just created a new list for my second bout at my gaming club. My tactical squad as halved and my scouts have doubled in numbers, i even considered dropping the tactical marines. I can see my tactical squad gathering dust with 7th
 

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Why not combat squad them? Have the las/ML in one group hunting armour and special flamer/plasma hunting infantry? Also easier to specialize tacs to infantry hunting. Flamer + heavy Bolter.
 

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You're still spending 65~ points on models doing nothing.
@Sethis - a very good point - one I meant to expand upon but clearly forgot. Spiders and Serpents are cheap as chips, and maximising their use is one way to get them to work. That clearly leaves one glaring weakness - and that's AV14 Spam, oddly enough, non-Deathwing Assault Dark Angels being one of the better lists to take against Eldar - but that is gotten around by Fire Dragons (who can take more Serpents, Serpents with Lances), and Knights.

Space Marines need a massive shake up - to the extent that Sternguard become pretty much the baseline Marine, but with a large points drop, and Scouts return to their WS4/BS4 self. Las/Plas spam needs to make a return, because currently, what Space Marines bring to the table is all overcosted for their abilities.

I've got to admit that I played more Legion lists than anything else, and Eldar doesn't feature as much in those games, and that Legion lists don't tend to function at a points level any lower than 2K, and arguably 2.5-3K for the most fun, thanks to the points taxes - Praetors/300pts on Boltguns before you can even afford to get anything nice and killy, etc, but what's noticeable is that the Boltgun, and the "much vaunted" resilience of Power Armour is hardly what it used to be. At least back in 3rd edition, Power Armour wasn't counted by anything sans Battle Cannons or 1 shot AT weapons, pretty much. Now, AP3 Blast weapons are a dime a dozen, and due to their medium Strength, lets them work in a light AT fashion, to take out transports like Chimera or Rhino's, and still wipe out swathes of infantry.

So, the strengths of the tactical squad are completely negated by the game. There are 2 stand out options in the Space Marine list - their Flying Potato cheap as chips flyers, and their Artillery.

Flexibility - The game favours specialist weaponry/tasks. Having to choose before game to be AT/AI means that the flexibility is completely gone.
Boltguns - Increased access to cover negates AP5 on weak troops, rate of fire not enough to gun down the hordes.
Toughness - Easy access to high volume low-AP shots/wounds forces units to use cover, which Scouts use better, and as there's no save anyway, you're better using that. Access to Torrent/Template Ignores cover AP3 weapons on high durability units means that even cover is not available. The change to AP for Melee weapons means that at-Initiative AP2 is hard to get, and rarely in any sort of number, which means that loading Power Swords is not as much of an answer as it used to be to deal with them, and assault in general is pretty weak (as a result of that and many more changes, like random charge etc), meaning that shooting takes an even bigger slant, and needs to cover a gap that Banshees used to fill - and high volumes of AP2 fire means that it cuts down the more expensive marines even more quickly.

There's a reason that Drop Podding Alpha Strike Sternguard is one of the most popular builds for Space Marines, and that's because it;

a) reduces the number of shooting phases your Sternguard have to face by 2
b) you get to put powerful AT in the most powerful formation
c) you're forcing your opponent to react to your potential movement - which usually means bubblewrapping units around valuable tanks etc - perfect for allied guard medusa's, tau riptides, eldar Suncannon Knights, and Marine Artillery to put heavy damage on them, or leaving them isolated, and to borrow a term - get them ganked. Conversely it also allows you to place units between intervening terrain to prevent them being slapped silly by the enemy templates.
d) They can be both AT with combiweapons+melta, AI with Bolters/Combi Weapons+flamer/Plasma, or Anti heavy infantry with Combi-Weapons+Plasma - or even at a push, AA, thanks to double Flakk Missiles. Add on that there's a chance of first blood as a result of this, and linebreaker, as well as removing the enemies access to their natural objective should you do well enough, and you're golden.

Vanguard and ASM are kind of poor - without some form of assault from deep strike, they're just expensive marines until that point. Sure, they can kind of move quick, and throw out a ton of attacks, should they all get there - but a canny opponent is just going to negate 150pts worth of models with a single AP3 Large blast.

It's a similar point as well - in Legion lists, in a World Eaters List, I have Assault Marines, or I have Tactical Squads with BP+CCW. Assault Marines have Rage, 1 attack base, and 2 Close Combat Weapons - 4 attacks on the charge, + Hammer of Wrath - a full squad of 20, with no upgrades is putting out 100 S4 attacks. Tactical Squads have the same, but no HoW - so is putting out 80. The difference is about 1 extra dead marine in combat, for a further ~75pts or so IIRC, and yet they die just as easily. A Tactical Squad conversely can have something like a Apothecary added for 5+ FNP, Interceptor, A 2+ armour save on the sergeant, has access to fury of the legion for double shots before an assault, and if you really feel like flashing the cash, have Bolters as well (but that doesn't really fit a WE army, which benefits from having more bodies on the field).

Space Marines suck. They're capable, and they're nowhere nearCSM, Orks, Guard or Nids weak (read Monobuild armies), but they're not capable of swinging with Daemons, Tau, or Eldar.



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Space Marines suck. They're capable, and they're nowhere near CSM, Orks, Guard or Nids weak (read Monobuild armies), but they're not capable of swinging with Daemons, Tau, or Eldar.
I think that's selling Marines a bit short - I don't have access to data across the world, because that's hard to find, but Space Marines did really well at BAO.

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2014/08/06/tits-tournaments-bay-area-open-2014-top-10-lists/

And for more detail:

http://app.torrentoffire.com/#/tournament/Bay-Area-Open-Championships/4/leaderboard

I think Marines are perfectly capable of swinging with the big boys of Tau and Eldar - it's just rarer to find good Marine players since so many people have them. SM is to me a better internally balanced book than Eldar (probably not quite as good as Tau, but then Tau is an exceptionally well-balanced book except for the anomalous Broadsides and Riptides). Marines pay a bunch for T4/3+, or T5/3+ for Bikers, which is a really nice thing on ATKSNF dudes in an objective-based environment. 3+ isn't the be all and end all, sure, but it's very resilient to the kind of firepower that everyone is bringing in 7th which is buckets of Str6/7 shots; those guns don't tend to have an AP value worth mentioning, so you can often afford to place objectives out of cover, making life a bit harder for your opponent to score them.

Marines aren't winning every game ever, but nobody is so that's an unreasonable expectation.

Of course, I may be totally wrong and BAO is just a complete curveball in terms of results.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
By the emperor I won!
Second game and tabled them, with ease...
Learned how to use the army properly and I did much better, although my opponent made lots of poor judgements. I still feel they are weaker and against and equal opponent they wouldn't of done as well.

Still not convinced with marines though, but as I've learned today, it's not so much your army it's the general your facing. I'm sure someone must have a devine quote for this?
 

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I'm tempted to look at BAO as a bit of an outlier. There are armies which were fairly capable of tabling the marines there. The Lack of Tau/dar leads me to think that many were trying to win without being Tau/dar, but the netlists there were pretty obvious (Baron+Objective Secured Jetbikes per ex), but suffered from people not actually knowing what to do with them. Then again, local metas are well away from global minmax netlisting.

On another note - well done, raven_jim. 40K (and fantasy) is one of those games where losing is as much a victory as loosing in that it's obvious to recognise bits where you're weak and how to change to counter that. The weak side is of course, it's effectively pay-to-win, where unless you someone fall into the most optimal build, you will have to buy X unit, and not take Y unit that you already have.



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Feel many of the traditional armies have been nerfed. But I think its always fun to have a fun army and competitive army. Honestly the more active your gamers group is the more you guys can have fun and enjoy it.

But I see your beef, if I still modeled and played games to be competitive I'd hate warhammer. Thank god they have other aspects to it including the lore.
 
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