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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Army Name: Cult of The Deep One

Special Notes
- First real 8th edition list. Getting back into the game after a long hordes, Warmachine, Infinity, Malifaux, and 40k spree. I think its pretty solid. Tons of units that can grind stuff down especially when aided by the de buffs from lore of shadows.

LORDS

Lord: Chaos Lord (with Warriors): 300pts
- Runesword
- Helm of Many Eyes
- Enchanted Shield

Lord: Sorcerer Lord (with Chosen): 320pts
- Lvl 4
- Infernal Puppet
- Dragon Helm
- Ironcurse Icon
- Lore of Shadow


HEROES

Hero 1: Exalted Hero (with Chosen): 210pts
- BSB
- Shield
- Sword of Swift Slaying
- Dawnstone
- Stream of Corruption


CORE

Core 1: 18 Warriors: 381pts
- MoK
- Full Command
- Halberds
- Shields
- Banner of Swiftness

Core 2: 27 Marauders: 185pts
- MoK
- Full Command
- Flails

Core 3: 5 Marauder Horsemen: 95pts
- MoS
- Flails
- Javelins
- Light armor


SPECIAL

Special 1: 18 Chosen: 467pts
- MoT
- Full Command
- Banner of Rage
- Potion of Strength (on champ)
- Shields

Special 2: Chariot: 120pts

Special 3: 6 Chaos Trolls: 270pts


RARE

Rare 1: Warshrine: 150pts
- MoT



Army Total: 2498
 

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Army Name: Cult of The Deep One

Special Notes
- First real 8th edition list. Getting back into the game after a long hordes, Warmachine, Infinity, Malifaux, and 40k spree. I think its pretty solid. Tons of units that can grind stuff down especially when aided by the de buffs from lore of shadows.
LORDS

Lord: Chaos Lord (with Warriors): 300pts
- Runesword
- Helm of Many Eyes
- Enchanted Shield
I would want a BSB, just in case he fails his stupidity test.

Lord: Sorcerer Lord (with Chosen): 320pts
- Lvl 4
- Infernal Puppet
- Dragon Helm
- Ironcurse Icon
- Lore of Shadow
HEROES

Hero 1: Exalted Hero (with Chosen): 210pts
- BSB
- Shield
- Sword of Swift Slaying
- Dawnstone
- Stream of Corruption
Make him a BSB, there's quite a few good banners available to chaos which are quite useful. This will also help with the stupidity amongst other things.

CORE

Core 1: 18 Warriors: 381pts
- MoK
- Full Command
- Halberds
- Shields
- Banner of Swiftness

Core 2: 27 Marauders: 185pts
- MoK
- Full Command
- Flails

Core 3: 5 Marauder Horsemen: 95pts
- MoS
- Flails
- Javelins
- Light armor
Banner of swiftness isn't really that useful, +1 Movement doesn't help you that much really now that charges are random, but if you have found it to work. Flails suck now, most combats last multiple rounds, you're better off with great weapons, or handweapon and shield with MoT.

SPECIAL

Special 1: 18 Chosen: 467pts
- MoT
- Full Command
- Banner of Rage
- Potion of Strength (on champ)
- Shields
Potion of strength on the champ is a waste, give him eye of the gods (+1 on your starting roll). Give the unit halberds too, 3 S5 attacks is a lot better than 3 S4.
Special 2: Chariot: 120pts

Special 3: 6 Chaos Trolls: 270pts
The BSB will really help the trolls, if you stay in range of that and the lord you will rarely fail stupidity, otherwise one unlucky turn and the trolls waste the turn doing nothing.

Chariots aren't that great anymore, you can't break anyone in one round and then the chariot is overpriced for what it can do. I would drop a troll or two and the chariot maybe for some chaos knights to give your army a bit of speed for flanking or similar.

RARE

Rare 1: Warshrine: 150pts
- MoT



Army Total: 2248 [/QUOTE]
 

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I keep seeing people choosing Lore of Shadows and have found it to be completely underwhelming. By far, the best lore is the Tzeentch Lore and a MoT sorceror.

At 625 points on Lords you are over the 25% limit for 2248 points. That works at 2500, not 2250. You need the Lvl 4 to be able to survive to cast and dispel with winds of magic and can benefit from a second sorc as a Lvl 2. look at bloodcurdling roar (low S, but no AS and easy to get off from a mobile sorc).

I've not been impressed with Marauder infantry. I'd much rather run two good units of warriors with halberds and MoK or shields and MoT.

Chosen are better now, but I've faced them twice in 8th edition and am not at all sold on them for their cost. I'd much rather run a unit of 6 chaose ogres with chaos armour and MoK (muso, even champ and banner) than trolls due to better LD, AS, and no stupidity. I like the synergy of a unit of chaos knights with a unit of ogres in the special slots, both units have strengths and weaknesses that offset each other and both can move. Dragon Ogres appear just a bit too expensive to rank up, while the Ogres get to strike in two ranks 3 wide at reasonable cost. Consider even a seventh ogres (swift reform with muso) in order to ensure ranks remain if one gets killed.
You really need a resilient BSB near your key units for the re-rolls in combat.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Firstly my Exalted hero is a BSB. I just don't have a magic banner on him. Doom Totem is nice but I removed it to make him killy. I don't see how a unit of Marauders will last more than one round. Either their damage output will be good enough to shred the enemy or they will take enough damage that there is no way they will make their break test. I suppose its worth thinking about though.

The champ on the Chosen has the potion for when he accepts a challenge he might be able to put some hurt on a character or in case the unit encounters a monster but the favor is a good idea too. I don't want to give them halberds as their purpose is to be an anvil unit at 3+/5+ and whatever buff they get will make them an even better anvil or an anvil that can shred whatever unit they face.

I like lore of shadows. the de buffs will pretty much make sure that my units annihilate the enemy. MoT really only has gateway and pandemonium going for it plus MoT would put me over on my lord points which I'm not right now I have 620pts of lords.

I also would rather have warriors than marauders any day but I can't afford a unit if I dropped the marauders. The chosen are expensive but I think they will be worth it. I just have to play a few games. Trolls having stupidity pretty much wont matter as they will be Ld 9 with a re roll and regen makes them survivable. The chariot wont break units anymore but its there as a flanker to do extra damage to make sure a unit wins combat by a lot. Though again I guess I will have to get a few games under my belt to see if its worth it.
 

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My personal preference would be to drop the Marauders and the Chariot to buy another unit of Warriors. I'm also not sure that 5 Horsemen is enough. They're only 1 round of shooting from a 10-man crossbow unit away from being reduced to 2 men, I'd run 8-10 myself.

Everything else is alright, although I don't like Chosen on principle and every time someone takes a character without a Mark I die a little bit inside... I just see the Chaos Gods waiting for the character in the afterlife saying "Your lack of faith disturbs us..." :laugh:
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Yeah the marauder horse unit is something I have been thinking about. They are pretty fragile. I have them there to get around back and hunt war machines and such but I feel that they will probably be shredded by a just run of the mill missile unit. And the mark thing bothers me as well. I would have liked to put MoN on both of them but that would have put me over my pts limit on lords.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Oh i see what you were talking about with my lords being illegal. I typed in 2248 instead of 2498. Too used to playing 2250 I will edit that.
 

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I'm wondering if Chariots with MoK get the +1A to all the constituents or just the whole model. Either way I think that Chariots just got a lot better than cavalry, since they usually have a pretty good armour save (ours is probably the hardiest of them all) and cannot be insta-killed, in comparison with cavalry, who need only a bit of higher S/armour piercing shooting to go down without much problem. Also, consider how much does a 5 man Knight unit cost (Mark of Nurgle or Khorne (the rest are pointless), Musician at the very least) and how much do you pay for a lone Chariot. The biggest deal is that A, the Chariot has only a little less Wounds than the Knights for roughly 1/3rd of their price and B, with the new percentage system you can't afford to waste delicious points that could be spent on pretty much anything else you can think of (unlike back in 7th with the slot system). Sure they don't have as many attacks but every Chariot is an independent unit, capable of doing lots of harm via flanking and devastating war machines and archers. While the Knights are one big point sink that looks good and sounds fun but gets boned unless you put a Blasted Standard there with Mark of Tzeentch and perhaps an Ironcurse Icon so they won't be obliterated by turn 2. Which leads to the rest of your army being considerably smaller, which is already a problem for WoC, especially in 8th edition's horde-fetish. So in my eyes Chariots are a better choice than Knights in a more competitive setting.

The rest... well... I'd drop everyone who doesn't have Chaos Armour on and buy as many Warriors as possible. Best Core choice in the game, sure its not cheap but it mops up everything short of death stars and monsters of DOOM. Like the new T10 Stanks. :p

I'm against using Trolls since Regeneration and Ward saves don't mingle anymore, so if you roll a double six on the Eye (which is the whole point I think, though the extra T, S and A is of course pretty useful) you end up with a second 4+ you can use (though this time even if you're facing Flaming Attacks) and a Stubborn (which is still awesome when your BSB/Lord is around). Fear is great but I think Terror lost its magic, so its another roll that got much less useful.
 

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If chariots got +1 Attack for every part of it, Chaos knights would get +2 attacks... which is not the case.

The problem with Chariots is that they are only really good on the turn they charge. After that, they are as effective as a pair of Chaos Knights, while costing as much as three of them. They also have a worse save (3+ vs 1+), but better toughness. And it can be 1-shotted by anything that causes multiple wounds, unlike Knights. Also no Banner or Musician.

In small games, I can see the logic, but in anything over 1500 points I think Knights are the better choice.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
The problem with knights being a better choice is that once you have them tooled up with a mark, command and maybe magic banner they are double or more the cost of the chariot. Sure they are better but the goal with the chariot is to flank an already engaged unit, not to take on whole hordes by itself.
 

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Chariots suck now, the unit itself is going to be stubborn, which makes them a really crappy choice, sure you get impact hits, what if you roll a 1, doing two hits and then the attacks, they were better before (baring strength 7). On top of that chariots can't march, which means they are slower than warriors at getting up to the line, which might not seem like much but really is. On top of that, chariots and frenzy are not horrible, mark of khorne made them good, now you get one measly attack, nurgle is pointless for them, as is slanesh and tzeentch.

Knights have more staying power versus many units, the reliability of a 1+ save is just great, combined with a guaranteed turn 2 charge, versus turn 3, it's an extra turn not getting shot and smashed up. 6 knights are 360 with MoK, blasted and command. Chariot with mark of khorne is 150, so let's compare 2 chariots with 6 knights, on the charge (knights are equally good when charged, chariots however fail when charged). On top of that, knights get a ward and their armour, chariots only get the armour and toughness,

Knights: 19 attacks, S5, WS5 (magical)
6 S4

Chariot: 10 attacks WS5 S5
4 S4
9 Impact Hits (eqv to 13 attacks)

It's a given that combat will generally last at least two turns in both cases, so in the first round the chariots are dishing out around 23 attacks, compared to 19 +6, slight advantage, in the round afterwards it drops to 10+4. In the first round the difference is minor, after that the chariots fall down severely, their prior strength was in breaking a unit in the first turn and running it down, that's no longer possible, war machines will still frequently one hit kill it and given the new reliability of cannons, chariots are in more peril than before.

The other bonus for knights is that they have champion (challenges) and a standard, for that bonus combat rez, on top of that they also have the musician, which are all beneficial, including quick reforms now.

The knights also have magical attacks which are useful for cases where you are up against ethereal enemies or similar.

The biggest props they can be given however is as a result of their reliability, war machines will generally only kill one, losing you 40pts, compared to losing you 150pts in a single shot. I love chariots, but again they seem to be too poor to be worth taking, I bought 3 chariots and quickly bought 15 knights instead.
 

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Knights get ward saves only from the Blasted Standard, cavalry models don't get the Parry save, so MoT is only good for them if they get the Blasted Standard and the Ironcurse Icon, because in bigger games you're going to end up with one big unit of Knights and you'll want to give them as much protection as possible. 2+ ward save against War Machines and a 3+ against everything else is just mean. However, they'll be targeted by spells and theres no protection against that, unless you put a character there with Magic Resistance (which luckily protects the unit too), but then you'll end up with a 1000-1200 point death star, which might be able to kill pretty much anything (eventually) and live to tell the tale, but they can still be circumvented by huge Steadfast blocks of Ld8-9 rats (or equivalents) and they'll be stuck in a swamp. Not to mention that your army will have much less men because you needed those points to give your Knights the survivability they don't really have on their own.

In comparison, Chariots are cheap and they don't really need MoK to be mean, MoS is enough if you're worried about Flaming Attacks but otherwise its pretty useless. The best part is that theres 3 of them for 360, making them excellent flankers and war machine hunters in every game (if you have lots of points, its not that hard to squeeze them in, if you have few points to work with then you have just enough for these guys). And its 3 different targets that need to be dealt with one way or the other, dividing your opponent's attention, fire- and manpower both overall and specifically, because he either tries to deal with everything (which is a risky business, depending on what army/list he has) or with specific threats (which is very risky with a gunline army, since the Chariots can easily find themselves weak targets to crush, but its a problem even for CC armies, since getting hit by a Chariot from behind is rarely irrelevant or ineffective.

What I mean to say by all this is that A, Knights are not as good as they used to be in smaller games but can kick lots of ass in bigger ones B, Chariots are always useful if you can manage to squeeze them in somehow. I consider Chariots the new Warhounds: if you have them its great but if you don't its still not a big deal (to what extent depends on the army/list you're facing).
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I don't understand the comparison to knights. Knights are hands down better its true. Chariots do serve a purpose though and are cheap. I really dont see how they are crappy as it helps my warrior blocks not get bogged down in combat for as long by grinding down a units flank. Also pretty much every unit will have maybe 3 or 4 models to attack it when its on the flank and thats not going to bring a chariot down whereas the crew and steeds will kill several models. The chariot is kind of a points filler in this list. Its a point filler that is a good support unit that can deal out quite a few S5 attacks to a units flank. Yes, if a cannon tags it I will probably have a dead chariot but that is true of a lot of things. The chariot is cheap as well so if it gets dropped by artillery I wont really be that bothered. If I had knights and they were killed before being able to do much of anything I would be a very unhappy boy.
 

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Chariots should almost never be used on their own, or by powerful armies... unfortunately warriors fall into this second category. I recon their most usful ability now is to ram into the flank of an ongoing combat to add extra combat res to a weak unit, eg while gors arent going to beat chaos warriors, a beastmen chariot ramming the flank of the warriors in the 2nd turn of the combat suddenly gives the beastmen +2CR and any kills it happens to do (over wounds taken)... which could well change the combat from a loss for the beastmen to a win. Suddenly that cheap chariot is looking like a very useful addition to the army.

With warrriors I would just stick to cavalry, you dont need to tool them up much to be lethal and they can stick around in a prolonged combatwhen the enemy is steadfast (and charging is not as vital with chaos cavalry then chariots)... but units of warriors or even properly tooled up marauders will rarely need anything to boost them in combat in order to win the fight, so a flanking unit might be useful, but isnt anything like as vital.
 

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Basically what Tim/Steve said. My Chaos Warriors have been charged by 30+ Empire Warriors before, and still won the combat by enough to make him need double-1s not to break. I can't really think of anything off the top of my head that 20+ Chaos Warriors with Halberds and character cannot defeat in 1-2 rounds of combat. They honsetly don't need the support, and if they do, a Warshrine is perfect for the job. 10 points more buys you a 4+ Ward, more wounds on the statline and a nice buff to the Warrior unit.
 

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Ward saves don't stack, the ironcurse icon with MoT would give you a 5+ versus war machines only, blasted will give you a 4+ versus all shooting.
 

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Knights: 19 attacks, S5, WS5 (magical)
6 S4

Chariot: 10 attacks WS5 S5
4 S4
9 Impact Hits (eqv to 13 attacks)
Magical has no real benefit now. Just watch out for models like Khazrak and Chakax - they reduce Magic Weapons to basic.

4 Dragon Ogres with Champion, Great Weapons and Additional Hand Weapons is 360pts

Combined with the Warshrine, you can get Eye of the Gods on this champion as well.

Anyway -
13 attacks, WS4, S7 or 17 WS4 S5 attacks
+4 Automatic S5 Hits against Infantry, War Beasts or Swarms.

That's the math. It allows you to take on the big boys like Minotaurs, all the way to Giants and Dragons, or take on the smaller hordes.

The other strength of that unit is its 16 wounds. Not to mention immune to Uranon's Thunderbolt and Chain Lightning, while granting frenzy. I had an idea that perhaps you could Chain Lightning your own Dragon Ogres, which would then bounce to an enemy unit after frenzying them, but it expressly says "enemies only" for Direct damage. Shame.

And NK's correct- Wards (and MR for that matter) don't stack unless it states as so - as per Dwarven Runes.



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Discussion Starter #19
I understand they dont stack like that. However 5+ ward against war machines will be pretty nice considering how many I will be likely to face. Blasted standard is nice but then I couldnt take the banner of rage so I went for the cheap ward booster.
 

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Well MoT+Blasted Standard are compatible at the very least, because MoT is a stacking ward save buff. Its a shame about Ironcurse Icon though, it would have been great to run around with a 2+ ward save against war machines. :p

I'm not sure about that setup Vaz, I think its lacking numbers. 6 would be ideal methinks, with AHWs and a musician.
 
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