[Tyriks]

So, I'll be playing against an Eldar player (most likely at 750 pts since neither of us has played in years). He is pretty competitive but probably won't bring his "A" game since he's rusty and he knows I have only played twice and both times were years ago. So, I'd like to be somewhat competitive. So, here goes:

BT chapter tactics
HQ
High Marshall Helbrecht - 180

Troops
5x Scouts (camo cloaks, teleport homer) - 70
10x Crusade Squad (Sword brother with power sword, Rhino w/ Storm Bolter) - 200

Elites
5x Assault Terminators - 175

Fast Attack
Stormtalon (TL lascannon) - 125

Total 750

It's not very shooty, which is in part to play to the BT strengths and in part because against Eldar I'm outgunned anyway. This might be a bad idea, though.

So, I picked Helbrecht just because he looks like a hell of a beatstick. He is a lot of points for this size army, though. Might make him a captain or chaplain instead.

The scouts are just supposed to get close enough for the terminators to deep strike. Might not be feasible against Eldar. Open to suggestions.

The crusaders I guess will try to take an objective or just give him something to worry about.

The Stormtalon is there because it looks so good to me on paper. I'm itching to see it in action. It might suck a lot more than I expect (with low armor and HP, it could go down right away from regular joes shooting at it if he's lucky in the rolls, it seems like), but I am hoping its mobility will keep it alive while it chews up valuable units from afar.

Like I said, though, I don't have a very good idea what I'm doing, so please give critiques/suggestions!

 

[jin]

don't many events forbid named characters in such small games?
i would swap him down for a max 2 wound not-so-special character,
maybe a chaplain.
add something cheap but nifty...
from my collection,
split the squad, add another rhino,
and/or add a skimmer.

 

[Haskanael]

don't many events forbid named characters in such small games?
i would swap him down for a max 2 wound not-so-special character,
maybe a chaplain.
add something cheap but nifty...
from my collection,
split the squad, add another rhino,
and/or add a skimmer.

events maybe, but considering this seems like a simple 1 VS 1 arranged game there are no rules against it.

on the list.

splitting the squad and adding an extra rhino might be an idea. the stormtalon can be worth it but is most effective in squadrons/multiples.

 

[Tyriks]

I think I'm just too excited to get the Stormtalon on the table. I'm kind of assuming he won't bring any anti air but if he does its points wasted so I'm removing it for now. I'm reluctant to add a rhino because I don't have a suitable proxy (only have one model atm). So, here's what I'm thinking now with your guys' input:

Hq
Chaplain (jump pack) 105

Troops
Same 270

Elites
Replaced assault terms with regular ones (getting them into cc with Eldar seems like it doesn't always work out well in batreps). Cyclone launcher 200 pts

Fast Attack
5x Assault Squad With jump packs - 85
4x Bike squad - 84

This set up seems better (except I still want to waste the points on a Stormtalon, haha). More bodies on the table and those bodies are very mobile. I might think about dropping some upgrades to try to get more assault troops. I don't know. Any more thoughts? Thanks for the help so far!

 

[darkreever]

This set up seems better (except I still want to waste the points on a Stormtalon, haha). More bodies on the table and those bodies are very mobile. I might think about dropping some upgrades to try to get more assault troops. I don't know. Any more thoughts? Thanks for the help so far!

One thought is your choice of HQ and squad he's running with. The chaplain isn't bad, but with a min assault squad with no upgrades means the entire group is going to be struggling to do much; even against Eldar.

I think I'm just too excited to get the Stormtalon on the table. I'm kind of assuming he won't bring any anti air but if he does its points wasted so I'm removing it for now.

Why? At this point level if your opponent has enough points to make flyers useless than they have fewer points on models or other threats.


Heres what I recommend:

Hq
Chaplain
Jump pack
105

Troops
Tactical squad
5x Additional models, meltagun, veteran sergeant, power weapon
Rhino
205

Scout squad
Camo cloaks, sniper rifles, missile launcher
84

Elites
Terminator squad
Assault cannon
195

Fast Attack
Assault Squad
2x Additional marines, jump packs, 2x flamers, veteran sergeant, power weapon
154

743

Gets you those bodies on the ground, all squads have the ability to take on different roles if need be, and everything works together.


Or if you really want to get that storm talon back in:

HQ:
Emperors champion
140

Troops:
Crusader squad
4x Additional marines, meltagun, power weapon
Rhino
181

Scout squad
Camo cloak, heavy bolter
73

Fast Attack:
Storm talon
Skyhammer missile launcher
115

Bike squad
1x Additional biker, 2x flamers
94

Assault squad
2x Additional marines, jump packs, flamer, veteran sergeant, power weapon
149

Total: 752

A little over, but this gets you that storm talon. Sure it costs you the terminators, but with Eldar bladestorm that +2 save is probably not gonna be as useful as it would be against other armies.

In regards to the storm talon, skyhammer missiles and a twin linked assault cannon gives you seven shots a turn. Even if you end up having to jink that still means some of those shots will be hitting.

 

[Tyriks]

Man, that looks pretty sweet to me. We're you thinking of putting the Emperor's Champion with the Crusaders, then? I agree with your assessment about the terminators, I think. It seems like they're too slow against Eldar and won't contribute much or will just get killed by sheer volume of shots.

Thanks for the advice so far, definitely helpful!

 

[jin]

this one looks the most fun to me:

Hq
Chaplain
Jump pack
105

Troops
Tactical squad
5x Additional models, meltagun, veteran sergeant, power weapon
Rhino
205

Scout squad
Camo cloaks, sniper rifles, missile launcher
84

Elites
Terminator squad
Assault cannon
195

Fast Attack
Assault Squad
2x Additional marines, jump packs, 2x flamers, veteran sergeant, power weapon
154

743

 

[darkreever]

We're you thinking of putting the Emperor's Champion with the Crusaders, then?

Yes, thats why there is only nine marines in that squad; so he can fill the tenth spot in the rhino.

I agree with your assessment about the terminators, I think. It seems like they're too slow against Eldar and won't contribute much or will just get killed by sheer volume of shots.

When something like that becomes the case you need to look at alternative modes of getting them to your opponent. In the case of terminators against Eldar its better to deep strike than walk them. That should give you a round of shooting without worry, but it comes at the cost of a large chunk of your few points not being on the board.

Assault terminators with storm shields are really the better choice against Eldar, due to the good invulnerable save, but their lack of mobility will always hurt them. If you really want terminators, save them for larger games and get a land raider.

 

[jin]

If you really want terminators, save them for larger games and get a land raider.

actually, i would play a small unit of termies on foot or in a rhino.
and force him to shoot at them.
give them a good save,
sit them on an objective,
and move everything else.
at 750 points.
might not "win"
but then again,
"competitive" 40k is for dkwads.
terminators rok beyatches !!!!

 

[darkreever]

Terminators can't be mounted in rhinos. And walking them means pitting them against Eldar guns, like shuricannon cannons which have bladestorm. Bladestorm is rending, rending wounds will ignore terminator armour saves so your relying on those invulnerable saves.

And if your gonna rely on an invuln save it might as well be from a storm shield. A 1/3 chance to fail a save is better than a 1/3 chance to make a save.

 

[Tyriks]

Yeah, I think I agree. I have done some mock battles to try to remember rules a bit better and that 5++ tended to not be reliable at all. I'm content to leave them off for now.

 

[jin]

Terminators can't be mounted in rhinos. And walking them means pitting them against Eldar guns, like shuricannon cannons which have bladestorm. Bladestorm is rending, rending wounds will ignore terminator armour saves so your relying on those invulnerable saves.

And if your gonna rely on an invuln save it might as well be from a storm shield. A 1/3 chance to fail a save is better than a 1/3 chance to make a save.

o.
can you tell that i haven't played 40k since 2006!
i hope to play sometime this year, for the first time in 10 years!
if i can make it up to Seoul...

yes, i remember the rending rule now.
and i understood that they will likely get all shot up.
but then again, i only ever played with models that i liked to paint, really.
so, i didn't win much.

anyways, i would still run that list but i guess no rhino.
and i would likely lose.
but it would be fun.

 

[jin]

Yeah, I think I agree. I have done some mock battles to try to remember rules a bit better and that 5++ tended to not be reliable at all. I'm content to leave them off for now.

sorry for the bad advice.
actually, i still think about 40k from the perspective of 2nd edition!
then, i didn't play until a long time later.
i don't even remember the edition that i played during 2005-6.
was that 5th?
and i have never played 7th.
but in 2nd, terminators were pretty good
and this year i hope to finally finish painting mine!

 

[Tyriks]

I think it was fifth, that's around when I tried to get into it the first time.

 

[darkreever]

but then again, i only ever played with models that i liked to paint, really.
so, i didn't win much.

Sorry to be a downer but that likely means you didn't play them well.

Certain units are going to be better than others, but that doesn't mean that without the right tactics or mindset the less optimal units will always be bad.

In this case I don't recommend walking terminators against Eldar, because Eldar have a lot of ways, even at smaller point levels, to get around the save of terminators. That means you minimize this weakness by not walking those terminators; deep strike them instead.

anyways, i would still run that list but i guess no rhino.
and i would likely lose.
but it would be fun.

I seriously doubt it would be all that fun. By dropping the rhino you lose the crusader/tactical squads ability to be support for any assault unit in the list since they now lack the movement/protection the rhino afforded them.

Personally I don't mind losing games, I like fun lists and close games; but fun lists don't have to get swept all the time, and they certainly don't have to lose every game if you play them right.


And @jin is correct, back in second edition terminators were great (they still are now, but at neither point were they great every single time.) That is until Eldar were given shurican weaponry, which is when rending was introduced to the game.

See that was before terminators had an invulnerable save, because very few things were able to bypass terminator armour saves and the things that did made sense. Then, all of a sudden, a fairly weak infantry unit could kill a terminator from range without having to get lucky and hope the terminator failed his armour save. Thats when things changed, Eldar became a dominant force and terminators tailed off a bit, and then they got an invulnerable save and became a bit harder to kill.

And then, until the latest Eldar codex, Eldar shurican weaponry lost rending and aspect warriors became better. Now there is a great balance in the Eldar codex, some things are better than others but everything is an easily viable option.

 

[jin]

Sorry to be a downer but that likely means you didn't play them well.

Certain units are going to be better than others, but that doesn't mean that without the right tactics or mindset the less optimal units will always be bad.

In this case I don't recommend walking terminators against Eldar, because Eldar have a lot of ways, even at smaller point levels, to get around the save of terminators. That means you minimize this weakness by not walking those terminators; deep strike them instead.

no, you are not a downer.
i played to win sometimes,
the very first times that i played man o'war (my first gw game)
and BFG, my favorite at that time.
in fact, i offered some house rules re-interpretations
simply to offer opponents better chances.
i did pretty well when i played to win.
i was unable to do that with eldar in 40k,
and then with marines.
maybe i am more admiral than general.

I seriously doubt it would be all that fun. By dropping the rhino you lose the crusader/tactical squads ability to be support for any assault unit in the list since they now lack the movement/protection the rhino afforded them.

Personally I don't mind losing games, I like fun lists and close games; but fun lists don't have to get swept all the time, and they certainly don't have to lose every game if you play them right.

originally, i suggested two rhinos with two smaller squads,
a smaller hq
and deep striking the terminators sounds like a no brainer.

And @jin is correct, back in second edition terminators were great (they still are now, but at neither point were they great every single time.) That is until Eldar were given shurican weaponry, which is when rending was introduced to the game.

See that was before terminators had an invulnerable save, because very few things were able to bypass terminator armour saves and the things that did made sense. Then, all of a sudden, a fairly weak infantry unit could kill a terminator from range without having to get lucky and hope the terminator failed his armour save. Thats when things changed, Eldar became a dominant force and terminators tailed off a bit, and then they got an invulnerable save and became a bit harder to kill.

And then, until the latest Eldar codex, Eldar shurican weaponry lost rending and aspect warriors became better. Now there is a great balance in the Eldar codex, some things are better than others but everything is an easily viable option.

so, now the shuriken catapults do not have rending?
i need to check the book...
haven't done anything with eldar models in a long time.

 

[darkreever]

so, now the shuriken catapults do not have rending?
i need to check the book...
haven't done anything with eldar models in a long time.

In second edition, when shurican weapons were introduced, they ignored armour saves on certain rolls.

From third edition through sixth edition this was removed and shurican weapons were essentially Eldar bolters.

In the Eldar seventh edition codex shurican weapons gained the bladestorm rule, essentially the rending rule by another name, meaning on a certain roll to wound they ignore armour saves just like they did in second edition.


So now, in seventh edition, shurican catapults have rending (through bladestorm). Something they have not had for almost the entire time you have not been playing.