[Hivemind Demeter]

If you followed my army list in this section, then you know how much I hated my Apoc game.
(Sorry for the crappy quality, I have a very cheap camera from 5 years ago...)
It was ruled by these:

They utterly raped us, even though it was 10k a side, one of their three players had that as his army.
Here was my contribution to our side:
(Note, very primed and unpainted. x.x

And thus is the battlefield before we all died:

 

[DaemonsR'us]

Um...ow....

 

[Hivemind Demeter]

It sucked for us, as we had a small deployment zone.
Keep in mind one of our armies isn't there, so we outnumbered them by like... 4:1 at least.
Our other Tyranid army was coming in from the sides, and I was redeploying my entire army behind theirs.
Had the Titans not been there, I think we would have survived and won the game.
As it happened, half of our forces on the field were gone by the end of their first turn, mostly from the Titans and the Baneblades.

 

[The Son of Horus]

My experience has been that superheavy units dominate the game, so both sides really do need them for it to be a fair game. Every time I've put my baneblade down, it's done an absurd amount of damage and lived thorugh the game just because the other side doesn't have something comparable and they focus all their more conventional units on destroying the baneblade instead of regular infantry or whatever.

I'm kind of curious as to what rules you used for the Reaver titan, since it's not in the Apocalypse book.

 

[Hivemind Demeter]

He fielded it as a warhound, since he didn't have the stats for it with him.

 

[Sister Sin]

Ouch! I can see where that would be less than amusing. Hmmm. Perhaps the group could limit such units until opponents can field similar or offset them in some way. Someone over on WiP was scratchbuilding a biotitan so perhaps that could be done...they pretty much show the process of creation there.

Here's hoping you have better games in future; Apoc is an excellent game as long as a bit of sense is used in the playing.

Sister Sin

 

[Elchimpster]

Yeah...I'm finding the same. Superheavies can rule the game pretty easy. My last game had six super heavies on one side, and one superheavy on the other...and the game was pretty lopsided.

What I'm afraid of is Apocalypse becoming a game of "escalation". I see your superheavy and raise you TWO! Oh yeah, you have a baneblade, well I have a Armored Company!

It becomes a vehicle battle, and the use of the infantry gets smaller and smaller. I for one still like (at least largely) infantry battles. Having tanks on the field is fine and all, but once the super heavies come on board, the game changes drastically to a tank-fight...or tanks slaughtering all the infantry with impunity.

After SEVERAL Apocalypse games now (what, 8 now?) I'm finding that setting limitations up front is far preferable to being able to simply bring everything you've got...because it's easy to simply get more big stuff. Playing games with limitations, like balanced superheavies, or even no superheavies on occasion makes for an awesome game.

 

[The Son of Horus]

I think superheavy units are kind of a necessary evil in really really large games. Otherwise, you never get done... stuff just doesn't die, and they're the only things capable of cutting down masses. I'd agree that massed infantry games are more fun (hell, I have a Space Marine company... if I didn't think that, I'd have gotten an armoured company instead.) I've found that if each side has one thing, like a baneblade or a warhound, it's a pretty fair fight. You've got to remember that Apocalypse really can't be approached the same way as a regular pick-up game-- you really need to sit down with everyone who's playing and figure out what each side is bringing so that you don't have that onesidedness.

 

[Ezekial Lightning]

what me and my friend did was that although we like super-heavies we decided that to make the game more fun that each side would be able 2 field certain things so if 1 side fielded a warhound the other fielded a heirophant etc. Of course we had 2 agree on evrything but it was a really tight fun game.

 

[Jasen]

Superheavies a "necessary evil"?! I don't know about you guys, but for me the chance to use legendary units is what excites me the most about apocalypse. Titans, superheavy vehicles and gargantuan creatures are just far too cool to not use, and what is apocalypse all about if not awesomeness?

I suspect that the main problem with these units at the moment is that they have just been introduced into the game and no one really knows how to deal with them. I think that their advantages and weaknesses will become apparent once people start having more apocalypse games. People will figure out what a good balance of superheavy to normal troops is. If it turns out that all superheavy is usually the best choice strategically, then the rules will have to be revised. I doubt this will happen however.

As long as everyone is aware of how superheavies work before the battle and build their armies accordingly they should be plenty manageable. For example, you can't rely on glancing hits to do much of anything against them so us Nid players will pretty much NEED to take gargantuans. Luckily, hierophants and hierodules can unleash torrents of str10 ap3 firepower all while moving 12 inches and tearing hoardes of infantry to shreds with their stomp attacks. If you don't have the models, get some or convert them and use a tissue box or overturned bowl with "Hierodule" written on the side of it in the mean time.

Think about it, wouldn't it be foolish to not take any anti-tank/monstrous creature weaponry in 40K? Apocalypse is the same except it introduces another level of power. Both very infantry heavy and very tank/monstrous creature heavy armies are possible in normal 40K they perform very well when your opponent isn't expecting them, but each has glaring weaknesses that can be easily exploited by a good opponent with a balanced list. I would imagine an all superheavy list in apocalypse would be very much like a godzilla list in 40K: very scary to look at, but easy to take take down if you keep your cool and know what you are doing.

 

[Sister Sin]

I'd have to concur...I suspect a lot of folks are simply trying to sort out the new parameters. Most folk haven't had a chance to play against super heavies or titans in any numbers or really organized way so old tactics are being tested and not always measuring up.

I like having super heavies, titans, and aircraft....what a wonderful new dimension to the game! That said, I'm still adjusting, trying things out, seeing what might and might not work. It'll take some time. But it's fun trying.

Sister Sin

 

[Elchimpster]

I've been fortunate to play several games of Apocalypse and superheavies can be fun...but a bit of balance is IMO needed.

Last game we had 6 superveavies on one side, one on the other.
Not fun.

It seems that the more superveavies you have, the less important Infantry-types become. Turns it in to simply a 40k Tank Duel...which if that's what you want, then no problem. If you like your infantry to actually be able to do something except die in handfulls per shot...then some self-imposed balance is needed.

That's just my own experience.

 

[Sister Sin]

I got the impression that such issues were supposedly dealt with in the negotiation before sorting out a game. Apoc isn't well suited to pick up games really.

I like tank battles, but I have a LOT of infantry, and I like using them, and I prefer more or less balanced battles for the most part, so I tend to cover these in the planning phase.

Just the way I do it.

Sister Sin

 

[Elchimpster]

I got the impression that such issues were supposedly dealt with in the negotiation before sorting out a game. Apoc isn't well suited to pick up games really.

I like tank battles, but I have a LOT of infantry, and I like using them, and I prefer more or less balanced battles for the most part, so I tend to cover these in the planning phase.

Just the way I do it.

Sister Sin

No, you're totally right. It IS dealt with in the negotiation pre-game. but then again, thus far we haven't imposed any limitations so far. Just bring what you have, tally up a loose point cost, and add strategic assets to even the numbers.

At this point we haven't HAD a pick-up sort of Apocalypse game, the numbers were planned out in advance, but not the force composition.

I think from here on out we (in our group of players) need to establish some limitations on force org. Otherwise we end up with what we had the last couple times...one side keeps adding heavies and superheavies until it's a blowout.

The idea of "bring everything you have" is great and all...but what happens when you start simply buying more superheavies. Then "Bring everything you have" takes on a whole new meaning. Then it's more like an escalation of force with Superheavies dueling Superheavies and ...well...you might as well leave the infantry at home.

Honestly...an all tank battle, with all heavies and superheavies...would be fun to do on occasion. But frankly, the VAST bulk of my minis are infantry-types.

 

[Pandawithissues...]

Heh, i love how in the fluff no-one ever sees anything larger than a leman russ, and in gaunts ghosts the appearance of a superheavy breaks the imperials until the saint saves the day. It seems like now the guard infantry regements might get disbanded what with this sudden suspicious influx of baneblades. No need for them now all these superheavies are popping up like pustules on a plaguebearer.

 

[Sister Sin]

That was OLD fluff. Now we're dealing with what will come to be called the NEW fluff.

I hear you. LOL This has happened continuously to greater or lesser degrees with various armies/units since Rogue Trader. I don't expect it will change much; they made Super Heavies available to make money, but also because people want to play them.

Still, I have predominantly infantry armies, some of the mechanized, but still infantry; as I suspect most of us do. I like playing infantry. I like the maneuver and the deployment of them. I have Super Heavies, yes; a company of them for my Tarakian Panzer Division; mostly because I really love the model, but also because entirely armored scenarios are in the offing...tank battles.

We try to set things up to be appropriate to the background on the whole. I won't bring all of the Baneblades generally, often none to be honest. Depends on the scale of the fighting and the scenario.

Sister Sin

 

[Ordo Xeno Commander]

well my last apoc game had one Super heavy in it, and that was a draw... just. we had the baneblade and we nearly lost. posibbly because it was stuck behind buildings and we had one weaker sector where a bunch of terminators came in and created havoc.

the next one wil have 2 - 3 super heavies, one on the side of order and 2 on my side, disorder

 

[Accommodator]

I for one welcome the addition of the super heavies. Pushing around tons / hundreds of infantry is not that great, especially if you play 'nids. As for the superheavies dominating - they have been a factor in about half the games (holding objectives at the end of the game - the rest are held by infantry. I've seen a Warlord go down to mostly infatnry fire - mass lascannons are not to be ignored.)

(A good set of datafxes for Legendary units not already published can be found on Bell of Lost Souls - such as the Imperial Reaver. and Eldar Phantom)

 

[theluc]

well ive played many mega battles of 3k points + never had a super heavy in my army.
titans and other alike i just deep strike as many meltas or chain fists as i can and all armies has something similar so no worries plus infantry is always important even if in a game you can loose a handfull in one shot they are meant to die plus the shooting phase they being aimed at .. it wont hit something else

 

[Steel Rain]

I for one welcome the addition of the super heavies. Pushing around tons / hundreds of infantry is not that great, especially if you play 'nids. As for the superheavies dominating - they have been a factor in about half the games (holding objectives at the end of the game - the rest are held by infantry. I've seen a Warlord go down to mostly infatnry fire - mass lascannons are not to be ignored.)

(A good set of datafxes for Legendary units not already published can be found on Bell of Lost Souls - such as the Imperial Reaver. and Eldar Phantom)

This is the key right here. A guard regiment with majority lascannons is scary. Even if you fire them at regular grunts, they will kill whatever they hit.