[Mossy Toes]

Building on this thread, here are some Daemons versions of the list. "Fate'lakor Iron" & "Fate'lakor Trinity Iron," I call them. I try to have some sort of vague naming conventions for my lists, since I have so many of them in Quartermaster these days, it makes it easiest to scroll through the app and pluck out what you're looking for... so "Fate'lakor (_____)" makes for a good section of Fatey and Be'la lists to choose from.


Fate'lakor Iron

Daemons Primary CAD

300 - Fateweaver (Warlord)
75 - Herald of Tzeentch w/ Exalted (0: Grimoire)

99 - 11x Pink Horrors
45 - 3x Nurgling Swarms

105 - 3x Fiends of Slaanesh

150 - 6x Screamers

170 - Soul Grinder w/ DoS, Baleful Torrent
175 - Soul Grinder w/ DoS, Warp Gaze
100 - Burning Chariot of Tzeentch

CSM Allied Detachment

350 - Be'lakor

50 - 10x Cultists

125 - Maulerfiend



...ok, that wasn't pure Daemons. I did get 3 low-Initiative Daemon Engines in there to synergize with the Fiends (and probably should shoot for a second squad of Fiends, for table coverage/to use as bait/redundancy to keep safe from enemy shooting/even to be able to assault in with the next round and keep the enemy-penalized low-I rolling), but don't have the minis or the points easily available. Hordes are something of a concern against this list, seeing as I only have the Pink Flames of Tzeentch torrent flamer on the Chariot, really, in that regard.

Still, if you want to fold the CSM detachment in and take Be'la in the primary detachment, we can work something out...

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Fate'Lakor Trinity Iron

300 - Fateweaver (Warlord)
350 - Be'lakor

45 - 3x Nurgling Swarms
45 - 3x Nurgling Swarms

105 - 3x Fiends of Slaanesh

200 - 8x Screamers

180 - Soul Grinder w/ DoS, Phlegm Bombardment
175 - Soul Grinder w/ DoS, Warp Gaze
345 - Daemon Prince w/ DoT, ML3, Lesser Reward (0: Staff of Change), Exalted Reward (0: Grimoire), flight, armor

I call it this one "Trinity" because of the Fatey, Be'la, and GrimoirePrince trio, who will be flying up the board inside Be'la's 6" Shroude bubble, a veritable West Side Story gang snapping their fingers and rolling 2+ (often rerollable) cover saves. Hoping to generate Cursed Earth on that Prince, for some extra unkillability to go around. Once that's down, I shoot for Iron Arm. In an absolutely ideal world, I go 3 for 3, then, and roll Invisibility too. Shhh. Let me dream that I could possibly get the 1 in 216 chance of rolling the right number on 3 different charts...

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Do post thoughts on the 3 lists--which you think would work best, which might struggle against certain opponents, etc. Any suggestions for improvements? Any questions about strategy? (I get that the Be'lakor Shrouded bubble+Jinking units forming a front line, followed up by Shrouded units hiding behind that front line for a mere 3+ cover of body-blocking, isn't that intuitive of a strategy)

(all lists 1750 points)

 

[otasolgryn]

i really have NO idea how those armies will fare...

cant help thining that they need something... to really do the killing.

i mean... kill the soul grinders and much of your killing potential is gone...

at least the part i can see right out.
there is loads in there i have never played with/against.

(screamer, chariot, belalkor)

guess you have to give it a go

 

[Mossy Toes]

Be'lakor has 5 S7 Armorbane Fleshbane master-crafted attacks at I8, so he's not too shabby at putting out damage. Screamers can swap their attacks for one S5 Armorbane Attack, which is nice against tanks (especially rear armor). The Chariot is fragile as all hell, with open-topped AV10 3 hull points, but throw Grimoire on it and it's suddenly nigh-unkillable with a 3++ invuln rerolling 1s, thanks to DoT. It puts out a good amount of damage per turn--think a Heldrake's Baleflamer or D3 S9 AP2 18" range shots per turn, and as a fast skimmer chariot, can get in range pretty well.

But your point stands. Especially against horde armies, I can't do much here. Even with Fatey throwing witchfire powers, And some melee MCs and walkers getting stuck in. The emphasis on the list is definitely on survivability and mobility, not overwhelming damage (but still some painful damage dealers). I totally agree that throwing 650 points into 2 HQs leaves me short on points for getting real damage dealers in there--especially when I add units more for synergy than effectiveness, like Fiends and Horrors.

Still, in more recent versions of the list, I find myself swapping one Soul Grinder for a squad of 15 Outflanking Seekers--excellent for shredding infantry whether they be GEq, MEq, or TEq, light vehicles, and MCs!

 

[MidnightSun]

I think the lists need something apart from Be'lakor's psychic powers - as it stands, a Culexus Assassin or a failed casting of Shrouding or even just going second against Drop Pods/Grey Knights/Dark Eldar/Deathwing/Tau/Eldar is really going to ruin your day (hell, Tau can take down a Swooping, Jinking, Shrouded Be'lakor in a turn with overkill using 3 Broadsides, a Commander with the usual gear and 2 Markerlight hits). While you still have the Soul Grinders, or the three Monstrous Creatures and a Maulerfiend shooting forwards early on, I think that losing Be'lakor would very swiftly gut the list and remove a lot of it's support (in either list, but mainly the Trinity list).

Be'lakor's fine and all, but when you have that many points sunk into support from Fateweaver, Be'lakor and a Prince with Grimoire, who don't have nearly the damage output one would want for your what, roughly 850pts of models (at a guess) and who are actually quite fragile if you don't get your, frankly unreliable, support casts off, you don't have a leg to stand on when you run into a counter.

 

[Mossy Toes]

Very true. My plan for when I run into a Culexus is "slingshot the Screamers at it from out of psyker range," but still.

I would be powerless against the missileside star apart from "pray for cover and not enough hits by markerlights." Well, though the Soul Grinder with Torrent there would definitely be on designated pathfinder torching duty. Grey Knights are manageable, I think, even when they get the first turn, unless they DS 8 Incinerators right into his face (with running to make sure of range) he should survive their alpha strike. Drop pods... well, if the Sternguard are firing cover ignoring rounds, they're not firing 2+ to wound ones. I'd also deploy Be'lakor bubble wrapped by everything light I have, so it'd be harder to get rapid fire range. Marginal, minimal survival tactics, but about all I could pull...

The time when 2 Flyrants alpha striked a flying Be'lakor and I failed 5 of 15 2+ saves was certainly a tough battle. I only had a fighting chance because the Warp Storm turned his Warlord into a Tzeentchi Herald on the next turn... (though ultimately, to be honest, his large blocks of Gaunts tied up my Walkers and Fateweaver couldn't quite too the balance on T5 by killing his home objective holding Tervigon/claiming it for himself)

Honestly, I don't think I'd field the trinity list--650 points for 9 T5 wounds is enough without adding another such MC...

I definitely have to be very cognizant of enemy Ignores Cover. If they have Sternguard, Wyverns, an AM CCS, tau Pathfinders... #1 priorities. And with my minimal shooting, I have few ways to react. Definitely something to tweak my list towards, in the time to come. Against /most/ armies, T1 isn't going to hurt me too bad. Vs a hard counter list, though, yeah. But hey, I'm going to run my scissors (minimal anti-rock as it has).

 

[MidnightSun]

Very true. My plan for when I run into a Culexus is "slingshot the Screamers at it from out of psyker range," but still.

I would be powerless against the missileside star apart from "pray for cover and not enough hits by markerlights." Well, though the Soul Grinder with Torrent there would definitely be on designated pathfinder torching duty. Grey Knights are manageable, I think, even when they get the first turn, unless they DS 8 Incinerators right into his face (with running to make sure of range) he should survive their alpha strike. Drop pods... well, if the Sternguard are firing cover ignoring rounds, they're not firing 2+ to wound ones. I'd also deploy Be'lakor bubble wrapped by everything light I have, so it'd be harder to get rapid fire range. Marginal, minimal survival tactics, but about all I could pull...

I think that you're underestimating the amount of damage Be'lakor takes from small arms without his defences of Shrouding and Snap Shots. T5 4+ W4, even with his 2+ cover save, is actually rather fragile for that price. Once he gets his defences up, sure, he's crazy tough to anything that's not a specialist shooting unit that ignores some rules (such as Broadsides with PENchip and C&C node/Markerlights). In this, I'd say he's pretty equitable to a Solitaire Autarch build, except with more support functions.

The time when 2 Flyrants alpha striked a flying Be'lakor and I failed 5 of 15 2+ saves was certainly a tough battle. I only had a fighting chance because the Warp Storm turned his Warlord into a Tzeentchi Herald on the next turn... (though ultimately, to be honest, his large blocks of Gaunts tied up my Walkers and Fateweaver couldn't quite too the balance on T5 by killing his home objective holding Tervigon/claiming it for himself)

That's another point in the list - not sure if it really has the damage output to kill hordes. You can do a number on Marines and especially GK, Wolf Guard, Sternguard etc. since the list puts out a small number of high-strength AP2 combat attacks with all the rules you could want tacked on, but I think even a moderate horde of Boyz (my Ork list runs 90 and has plenty of points to spare on Battlewagons etc.) - in these instances, you'd need to be very careful as you can't send any one of your units into combat. I don't have the maths handy, but I'm guessing that even Be'lakor with Invisibility would struggle against 20 charging Slugga Boyz or Poisoned Hormagaunts.

I definitely have to be very cognizant of enemy Ignores Cover. If they have Sternguard, Wyverns, an AM CCS, tau Pathfinders... #1 priorities. And with my minimal shooting, I have few ways to react. Definitely something to tweak my list towards, in the time to come.

I knew you were, you're a very competent list-builder - it just helps for someone to point these things out sometimes. In addition, I'd say that you'd have to watch out for alpha strikes - I know I wouldn't feel qualms about throwing an entire armies-worth of firepower at him because if removed, he's such an expensive and important element of whatever list he's in and worth a huge reward considering the amount of fire you have to put it.

Also watch out for melee - Be'lakor's mean in a fight, and being 12" move you can usually pick your fights and avoid bad matchups (much like Mephiston used to be, that glorious bastard); but it only takes a bad roll for Warp Charge or an unlucky roll for Invisibility can leave him out in the cold against pretty much any dedicated melee unit.

 

[Mossy Toes]

I think that you're underestimating the amount of damage Be'lakor takes from small arms without his defences of Shrouding and Snap Shots. T5 4+ W4, even with his 2+ cover save, is actually rather fragile for that price. Once he gets his defences up, sure, he's crazy tough to anything that's not a specialist shooting unit that ignores some rules (such as Broadsides with PENchip and C&C node/Markerlights). In this, I'd say he's pretty equitable to a Solitaire Autarch build, except with more support functions.

I'm trying not to underestimate how much damage he'd take. A squad of Sternguard all rapid firing (with bubblewrapping Be'lakor and deploying with my back to LoS blocking cover, or something, I can't imagine the opponent would be able to get multiple units in rapid fire range--so 1 unit of Sternguard in rapid fire range is equivalent to 2 at long), an enemy would get 20 shots, which accounting for hitting, wounding, and my 4+ invuln, averages 2.22 wounds. Yes, painful, and yes, I can easily flub that within a statistical deviation and lose him outright--but I do also have the ability to reroll one save (Fatey, yay!) and will have deployed exclusively to protect him. Plus there's no guarantee my opponent will get the first turn, so it'd only be against half the games in this specific list that they'd get that alpha strike at all before I'm swooping... (Initiative seizing going both ways, after all, though still mucking up guarantees, I'd probably deploy defensively so no matter what)

And like you say, he already has his 2+, so Shrouding doesn't help /him/--just those around him. It's swooping that he really wants (or casting invisibility on himself, if there are to be targets he wants to hit/good enemy Skyfire).

A nice thing on the Tau side of things: Missilesides are fairly static, all told. I can use LoS blocking cover to my advantage. Unlike against Wyverns (can deploy out of range of one) or Thunderfire Cannons (multiple TFCs, the real Be'lakor bane before he's swooping), I can deploy out of line of sight of the Missilesides (and would ideally be able to find a nice hiding spot after my T1 movement, too). Plus Tau are rarely going to be able to deny Invisibility... (score another point to Taudar)

That's another point in the list - not sure if it really has the damage output to kill hordes. You can do a number on Marines and especially GK, Wolf Guard, Sternguard etc. since the list puts out a small number of high-strength AP2 combat attacks with all the rules you could want tacked on, but I think even a moderate horde of Boyz (my Ork list runs 90 and has plenty of points to spare on Battlewagons etc.) - in these instances, you'd need to be very careful as you can't send any one of your units into combat. I don't have the maths handy, but I'm guessing that even Be'lakor with Invisibility would struggle against 20 charging Slugga Boyz or Poisoned Hormagaunts.

Yup. Like I said, I'be started taking a large block of Outflanking Seekers, now. Against hordes, I'd let them start on the board, probably (if few significant long range templates on the enemy side), and give them Invisibility right off. Then let them go a-dicing...

I admit this list was partially born out of a need for a viable counter to seeing the 3-Knight list somebody brought to a tourney. I need a viable counter to that--and it's hard to make a list that can survive that /and/ it's most extreme opposite, the horde. Somewhere along the spectrum of "take all comers" capability in your lists, you need to make value judgments as to what threats are weighted higher... and here horses and fliers have been given a bitire of an easy route. But not wholly, with Fateweaver's shooting and the Seekers, now, so...

Also watch out for melee - Be'lakor's mean in a fight, and being 12" move you can usually pick your fights and avoid bad matchups (much like Mephiston used to be, that glorious bastard); but it only takes a bad roll for Warp Charge or an unlucky roll for Invisibility can leave him out in the cold against pretty much any dedicated melee unit.

Oh yeah, without Invisibility and/or Grimoire on Be'lakor (both, if he's trying to take on a Knight) I'm quite hesitant to charge him in. A 4+ invuln won't hold against most melee units... though a 2+ invuln from Grimoire (coupled with EW and his I8) might. I have to pick my battles, though, certainly: take out targets of opportunity--whether they be stranded or already weakened--don't expose myself to counter-assaults, etc. a favored tactic is for me to charge him into an ongoing assault as a tide-turner, polish off the combatants there (say, finish off the Dreadknight that's been stomping my Hounds, on a different list's game), then use the consolidation move to bubble-wrap him against nearby enemy assaults if possible.

W/r/t things like the failure of Invisibility or chance to perils: yes, that is a very real danger. This list plays with high-risk high-reward abilities, like Grimoire and relying on psychic defense buffs. To say nothing of Warp Storm. But that's the joy of Fateweaver, as a counterbalance to skew my luck against the high risk side of things. In a list like this, he makes damned sure to make back his points--he almost can't help it, when his reroll lets me pass Invisibility; when the Warp Storm shifts from a result of taking a 3D6 Daemonic Instability test to all my daemons get +1 to their Invuln; etc... to say nothing of laying down a 24" AP2 S4+D6 beam every turn.

Be'lakor is definitely a finesse character rather than a brute force one, with a fragile statline, all told, but the potential for such a layered defense... he's much like Fateweaver, in that regard. That honestly makes for what I like most about the list: it's incredibly high skillcap list (to the point where I'm frequently kicking myself after games about things I ought to have done) that has answers to many facets of the conventional meta. It has its glaring vulnerabilities--against fliers and Ignores Cover, for instance--so I'm constantly tweaking for more balance.

But still, glaring vulnerabilities or no, for once, I can rely on a unit surviving the enemy shooting phase in /most/ cases. Coming from a few years of seeing editions punish my melee CSM more and more... That's gratifying. I have mobility, I have defenses, I can take out hard targets--at the cost of high prices and lack of unit duplication. If I make a mistake or mis-judge risk, I can expect enemies to capitalize on that--and I'm punished very heavily for my errors (which I honestly like, really). But it's not a cookie-cutter sameunitspam list that plays in a point and click manner--as damned near opposite that as possible, in fact. And it's damned fun to play.

Edit: I realize this turned into a real wall-of-text, but hey--thanks. Your concerns are very valid ones, and I've had a lot of fun writing about this and, really, exploring out loud part of why I enjoy this list so much, as well as the chance to really delve into the list's theoretical component. I think you deserve a +rep for inspiring (and putting up with) my long-winded ramblings. Also, this written on my phone, I'm certain there are some weird autocorrects that I haven't caught...

 

[otasolgryn]

Edit: I realize this turned into a real wall-of-text, but hey--thanks. Your concerns are very valid ones, and I've had a lot of fun writing about this and, really, exploring out loud part of why I enjoy this list so much, as well as the chance to really delve into the list's theoretical component. I think you deserve a +rep for inspiring (and putting up with) my long-winded ramblings

Hell this is why this is fun/usefull.

Seeing others lists and their ideas. And then take what you like for your own use. And to find the good/fun comboes, you have to hit some duds here and there

ill just say: TRY IT!!!