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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm putting this in the list building section because I see it come up here a lot... but please feel free to move it if it doesn't belong...

I haven't posted a list in a long time, but I'm going to point this out first, this list is FLUFFY. I don't really care if my tactical choices in transports or unit wargear loadout are really competitive or not, the chance is 0-100 that I will not even play in a tournament, so keep your 'this isn't competitive' gibber to yourself or git fraked. :victory:
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Again its a fluffy list, if your not one to venture out of the list boards, you can see my fluff and log for the list in my sig.

Also, feedback appreciated. meaning your opinion on this list, not what you would change in it.

PS; I'm not pissy, I just dont want this to become another cookie-cutter list, 'cause its competitive' Grish
OK, Grish -- just to set the tone.. this is NOT meant to be a jab at you... I see these kinds of posts from time to time and I'm just confused and want to confirm whether or not my expectations are realistic.... I just used your post as an example.

First of all... if you post of fluffy list and ask for comments... but then say you don't care if it's competitive... WTF do you actually want? If it's going to be fluffy, I would like to see the fluff/reasoning behind each selection.... and then have the opportunity to call BS... and give background as to why... BTW - Grish isn't really at fault for this here, since he says he's looking for an overall opinion and not what to change... but we see this sort of thing all the time and it's just confusing... Part of what I expect is "hey, could you please tell me my list is awesome.. but don't tell me why it sucks cause that would hurt my feelings..." -- I get this impression because you tell me it's a fluffy list but don't tell me why it's fluffy... So I just assume you have thin skin and attempt to give soft advice....

If you're posting your list up on the Space Marine Lists section of the forum... then MY assumption is that you want critique on your list... OR, you're posting the list as a concept... ie, "this is how I run Razorspam or TWC... who has better?" --- but when I see FLUFFY, I don't know what to think... When I see "fluffy" in the title, I normally try to look at the list as a whole and not go into specifics... but if the list just sucks because it has no answer for Mech, or will get owned by a mobile army like the Eldar... do you want that sort of advice?

So lets say the list sucks... I reply "hey your list will REALLY struggle because you're trying to get it to do too many things... Sternguard, Termies, Thunderfire Cannons, and Ironclads is just too many expensive bits to be effective... and trying to run it as Raider spam too? You need to pick a direction and focus your list around it...." -- Should I expect to see a "you're just WAAC... this is a FLUFFY list... you just don't get it" sort of reply?

Here's what I expect when I hear fluffy... but curiously never see.... are my expectations just that off?

3 x Long Fangs in TL Las Razorbacks (3 ML and 2 HB)
Fluff - I have all my Long Fangs in Razorbacks... Per the codex, it says that Long Fangs like the Razorbacks best. I'm running three of them cause they were having a softball match when the call came to go fight Chaos....

Based off of this... I would expect to see positive comments for the razorbacks bit and negative comments for the softball bit...

But we never see that... Just "it's fluffy" --- which gets interpreted as -- don't tell me what to do...

Also, just for the record... I HATE tournaments... I would have liked to go to NOVA, but other than that.. I think it's a chance to take a fun competitive game and introduce poor sportsmanship for the chance to win a $25 gift certificate.... I would ALWAYS prefer to have friendly games. But I want them to be competitive... Or at least balanced... so if we're playing and your list is crap... I'll try to match by introducing weaknesses into my own list.... but competitive lists aren't just for tournaments....
 

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Im right there with you man. i posted on a raider spam list today where the guy was in the same train of thought. he came off as he liked his list the way it was and was just looking for approval and praise. but after a post or two, was able to calm him down and see the light. He wasn't a bad guy, he just needed to see what he was coming off as.
 

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The problem seems to be that there are 3 kinds of 'Fluffy' lists:

1) I like the story behind X, so I'm going to build an X themed army. X could be a type of unit, character, or army.

2) I don't want a cookie cutter competitive list, but I don't want my list to completely suck.

3) I like X because it kicks ass and makes my army very powerful (Vulcan, etc.)

The first and third types of fluffy lists general go over well on these boards as they are either A) completely non competitive or B) resemble tournament lists and are therefore easy to respond to.

However, there is generally a disconnect between the list's author and the heresy forums on the second type of list, either due to the author not explicitly stating their expectations, or due to posters assuming the list is meant to be highly competitive. The main issue is, how do you keep the army's 'theme' while pushing it in a more competitive direction?

Because the stimulus behind most of the army lists on these forums is competitive (possibly semi-competitive) game play, I feel that it is a fluffy author's responsibility to clearly outline their expectations and/or which aspects of the list they are looking for feedback on.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Im right there with you man. i posted on a raider spam list today where the guy was in the same train of thought. he came off as he liked his list the way it was and was just looking for approval and praise. but after a post or two, was able to calm him down and see the light. He wasn't a bad guy, he just needed to see what he was coming off as.
That thread is part of where this is coming from....
 

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2) I don't want a cookie cutter competitive list, but I don't want my list to completely suck.
I guess that is it in a nutshell. The fluffy list maker has a thematic idea that they want to preserve while making a list that is likely to play well. I agree with your general sense that if that is so, then you expect to see words to the effect of explaining what the thematic part is, so you can offer appropriate advice around that.

I was thinking about this today. I recognise the efficacy of spam lists, and was wondering if it will boil down to their being a pretty standard setup that all SM must play, with little variation. That would indeed suck.
 

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that guy with the LR spam wanted slight adjustments on his theme and he did receive the big ol' 'your list won't work' comment pattern. what i saw about that post is that most people didn't read into him very accurately and became annoyed with him when he said, 'wtf?'. i actually appreciated his self defense. there are a lot of personality types posting on these boards at very random times and this is an example of a break down. how about the plasma spam guy? i just couldn't get him to agree that putting a plasma pistol on his dev. squad was just silly, i made sure i didn't let it get me in a huff because he was seemingly unreasonable.

i say let the ones who want what they want, have it, and if you/we can't handle that then opting not to respond, or feed into it, is the better path to take. It's only a game, a game I do enjoy.

~ mr.sarofeen
 

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I agree Completely CLT When people post up lists claiming they're fluffy I would like reasoning behind their fluff. I have seen many so called "fluffy" lists basically being a load of units that the owner likes and wants to use but have no real melding together, competitively or fluffy. This is annoying as it messes up both sides of the game for me really.

When people have a set theme, Like A scout heavy army, Dread heavy army any thing like that and tell me they plan on using that I will Happily, very happily, make a list revolving around a goof fluffy theme, I'm currently thinking of doing a majority dread army resembling the Fluff in the BA codex about the ork attack on Baal.

With my List at the moment, I'm building it up for Gaelcon, one of the bigger tournaments in Ireland( I think and hope :p) But if people asked for the fluff behind each unit and reason it's in there fluff-wise I could answer that fully. This is, in my opinion, the best possible outcome you can get to. Having a solid enough list while still having it reflect the fluff of your army. BA Jumpers does this well, as does the templars Crusader rush. One of the best lookign armies I have ever seen, a Heavily converted Nurgle CSM army Was one of the hardest armies I could have played against and It was fluffy. the squads were Nurgle's number, no lash to be seen and overall just a really nice army.

So, through this massive rant I think the main point I'm getting at is that fluff does not necessarily mean bad, and it certainly does not mean just uncommon units. It is a theme that can work well given the right attitude towards it.
 
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