[D-A-C]

Hey everyone .....(imaginary converation) say D-A-C didn't we all provide you with help for an Iron Warriors list? Why yes indeed you all did. Say D-A-C didn't we then help you with a Word Bearers list? Yes thats correct again (and indeed I need to get that battle report I promised posted). Well, why the heck should we help you with another list? Well because I have finally settled on a theme (my orginal favourite) after discovering it can be relatively competitive and I also ordered £100 worth of stuff meaning if I change again i'll be broke, hooray! Hell maybe thats a sign I should become an agent of the Lord of Change (damn I wonder can I change that Games Workshop order?).

Anyway leaving all that aside, I've been chatting with some of the folks over in the tactics section about which model is better Lucius or a Slaanesh Blissgiver Chaos Lord, even though the matter is pretty settled if anyone wants to suggest Lucius instead in the following lists please feel free to chip in.

Here is the 1000pts list for my Emperor's Children army, as I always say fluff is important to me because its just some awesome extra rules to follow. I would like some comments on this list first:

1000pts (1000pts) (4 Vehicles) (20 Models)


HQ

Chaos Lord, Mark of Slaanesh, Daemon Weapon, Meltabombs, 140pts


TROOPS

10 CSM, Champion, Powerfist, IOS, Combi-Flamer, x2 Meltaguns, Rhino, 275pts

9 Noise Marines, Champion, Power Weapon, Doom Siren, Meltabombs, x6 Sonic Blasters, Rhino, 295pts


HEAVY SUPPORT

Vindicator, Daemonic Possession, 145pts

Chaos Predator, Autocannon, Lascannons sponsons, Havoc Launcher, 145pts


I'm pretty much settled on it unless anybody can suggest any changes if I'm missing a trick or two. Where I'm having the problem is in bumping it up to 1500pts which is the standard size game (along with 1000pts) which we play in my area. Also I will be eventually entering the tournament scene so I need to be prepared for that (although I don't need super competitive, just enough so that if I play well I can always have a chance of winning).

I have looked and so some of the comments so far and come up with the following list, which I would love some opinions on:


1500pts (1495pts) (5 Vehicles) (30 Models)

HQ

Chaos Lord, Mark of Slaanesh, Daemon Weapon, Meltabombs, 140pts


TROOPS

10 CSM, Champion, Powerfist, IOS, Combi-Flamer, x2 Meltaguns, Rhino, 275pts

10 CSM, Champion, Powerfist, IOS, Combi-Flamer, x2 Meltaguns, Rhino, 275pts

9 Noise Marines, Champion, Power Weapon, Doom Siren, Meltabombs, x9 Sonic Blasters, 275pts


HEAVY SUPPORT

Land Raider, Daemonic Possession, 240pts

Vindicator, Daemonic Possession, 145pts

Chaos Predator, Autocannon, Lascannons sponsons, Havoc Launcher, 145pts


I know I've said I hate Land Raiders in previous posts, but I'm thinking that it would significantly aid the Noise Marine / Lord squad and provide another bigger target (along with the Vindicator) therefore increasing the value of the Predator which can use (hopefully) two turns of unimpeded movement to get in a good position for medium range support.

Finally I also added a further 3 sonic blasters to the Noise Marines and a third troop choice, which in this case was the all round Vanilla Slaanesh marines with their Melta, Flamer, Fist Combo in a Rhino. This leaves a spare 5 points which I haven't a clue what to do with lol. So what are everyones opinions of this list?

 

[SSIRE]

I know this aint being constructive or anything with this advice, but i look forward to tearing this army list apart with my tyranid horde! Watch out for the deadly kitchen-roll!

Anyway back on topic. It looks like a solid list, though i would drop the predator in exchange for two obliterators, due to their mobility and the fact that you have 4 wounds against one unlucky armpen, ID aside. Another benefit with the obliterators is the only way you will loose an effective weapon on an ob' is through death. A few lucky glancing and penetrating rolls could leave a predator completely redundant.

One last thing, even though the models are massive, compared to a tank though it's easier to hide them behind cover, giving them better survivability!

 

[Fallen]

well, i like the list - not so sure about the NM layout but hey.

but before i suggest what to make / add for a 1500 pt list i want to know two things:1) what are units in this list that cannot/will not be allowed to be changed at all? 2) what types of armies do you usually run across - mech IG, DPing SMs, rhino rush SM, etc.

if there are a relative lack of high strength &/or low AP weapons but lots of troops then i think my 1500 pt army would be pretty good, 4 troop choices a DP, lord w/2 LCs, 4x rhinos & a dread feel free to use it as a base if you dont know what to do.

 

[Alpha Legionnaire]

I was going to ask about the combi-flamer and havoc launcher, the combi makes that a pretty expensive chaos marine and doesn't make them any better at hunting tanks(And it relies on that rhino staying around).
The havoc launcher will never fire at anything that it needs to, the predator is all about tank hunting, and you've attached a chaos marines worth of points into a s5 blast weapon. I just don't see this working well in your favor, perhaps clip off the combi and the havoc launcher and instead fill up the slaaneshi boys to a full ten?

I like your power weapon/melta bombs idea but your list is very low in fist swings. When bumping up maybe take a termiecide squad(It's just three terminators, cheap I swear) armed with two combi meltas, a chainfist, and a heavy flamer? I think it's in the ballpark of 120 points of 2+/5++ with a ton of firepower.

Also if you need a dreadnought I've got a metal chaos one. It's super bulky and hard to convert but maybe you can find a use for it?

 

[D-A-C]

Hey Fallen, I'm open to using and changing all units as long as it maintains a slaanesh theme. The only units I'm unwilling to use are Daemon Princes, Lash Sorcerer (just because they are overrated, one dimensional and need to be built around) and to a lesser extent Obliterators (even though everyone recommends them, I'm still yet to be convinced). Other than that I'm pretty much open to ideas.

As for armies I face, the number one would have to be a Nidzilla style tyranid list that includes a Sawrmlord. Also to a lesser extent Tau and Imperial Guard. But in saying that I would like to maybe enter some local tournaments, so I want to be fluffy / competitive.

 

[Alpha Legionnaire]

Hey Fallen, I'm open to using and changing all units as long as it maintains a slaanesh theme. The only units I'm unwilling to use are Daemon Princes, Lash Sorcerer (just because they are overrated, one dimensional and need to be built around) and to a lesser extent Obliterators (even though everyone recommends them, I'm still yet to be convinced). Other than that I'm pretty much open to ideas.

As for armies I face, the number one would have to be a Nidzilla style tyranid list that includes a Sawrmlord. Also to a lesser extent Tau and Imperial Guard. But in saying that I would like to maybe enter some local tournaments, so I want to be fluffy / competitive.

You can work around obliterators but it forces you to take the predator, otherwise the chaos army lacks reliable, cheap, lascannon sources.
And sadly the chaos sorceror is like a slaaneshi chaos lord light. He has a force weapon, and lash, same s, same t, same save, just one lesser ws and no fearless.

If you need convincing on the obliterator think of it like this, for the cost of five havocs with no weapons you get two havocs that have fused together for a 2+/5++, and ALL the havoc weapons, plus a powerfist with two swings. This is the appeal for powergamers is that if you deploy the oblits right and give enough other big targets, they work great as they enemy can't take time or the right guns to kill them instantly(s8+). I hate the hell out of them(ugly models, unfluffy for alpha legion) but their effectiveness is without question if used correctly.

 

[D-A-C]

Hey Alpha Legionnaire, sorry I missed your first post, I was writing a response to Fallen, and so it made it look like I just completely ignored your ideas.

The problem with obliterators is that they hang back and shoot whereas a Predator can move forward turns one and two up to 24 inches in support of the troops, probably the Noise Marines, while the Vindicator supports the CSM's.

The reason I took the Combi-Flamer on the Chaos Champion is that the unit has to always be moving forward because of its melta and can decide to stay inside the rhino if it likes lol, but if I run into a horde of Gaunts or Boyz that unit is severly lacking and I feel that evens the odds a bit. The Havoc Launcher on the Predator is because I have the spare points by that stage and I thought it would help it be versatile against hordes aswell as elites/MC's/Vehicles.

The tactic I was actually considering at some point was 5 CSM Havocs, x2 Missile Launchers, Rhino and a Havoc Launcher, this unit has a 48" range, can move to a good location and just blast away inside the Rhino. Even then I think Havocs in a Rhino are better than Obliterators as they are (A) more mobile and (B) a Lascannon only takes out the Rhino and not an Oblit.

Finally, I think Termicide is great although I think I might just use x3 Melta, or my fav x3 Plasma.

Also thanks for offering the Dread (are you giving it to me for free ?) but what I think I will do is convert a plastic Space Marine Venerable, use patches of greenstuff to act as Flayed skin drapped over the armour, have a Slaanesh banner (from the Daemonettes Box) on the back of it, and maybe try and convert a defiled corpse onto the banner aswell. The fluff behind the character would be he was the former, very depraved leader of the warband, who was entombed and is now crazy from a lack of sensation. I know people hate dreadnoughts, but I adore them fluff wise and to be fair, Missile Launcher, CCW + Heavy Flamer is only 105pts.

But please keep those comments coming as they are always helpful! k:

 

[Fallen]

well against Geq NMs are the bomb, a squad of ten with all SBs, 1 BM = 285 pts (these guys find some sort of cover & sit there / stay back & form a gun line, & if they get outflanked / assaulted they still 9/10 times strike first.

as soon as the nids reach half way they will start dieing in droves or getting pinned.

vindi's work well if using a "tau" battle plan, back up 6" across the board, shoot. maybe go forward the 1st turn if you get it, dont use rhinos against nids, waste of points.

id use DPs, maybe not have lash, but ya against nids bring 2 DPs...give them MoT wind of chaos (or whatever makes the spawn), & warptime. I6 at least ties what the nids can bring.

against mech armies, tau (IG?), oblits & termies are great, as mentioned already. rhinos are a much have.

 

[right hand of khorne]

if ur versing nids i think the landraider would be big point sink, and wont make that much of a difference. i think u should drop the LR, and put the noise marines back in a rhino. it will still offer some protection at far less points.

another thing i would do is drop the combies and with the spare points from droping the landraider would be adding in a chosen flamer squad (5 marines, 4x flamers, IoS, rhino = 130pts)

so this is what i would do....
HQ

Chaos Lord, Mark of Slaanesh, Daemon Weapon, Meltabombs, 140pts

Elites

5x chosen, x flamers, IoS, rhino, 130pts

troops
10 CSM, Champion, Powerfist, IOS, x2 Meltaguns, Rhino, 265pts

10 CSM, Champion, Powerfist, IOS, x2 Meltaguns, Rhino, 265pts

9 Noise Marines, Champion, Power Weapon, Doom Siren, Meltabombs, x9 Sonic Blasters, rhino, 310pts

HEAVY SUPPORT

Vindicator, Daemonic Possession, 145pts

Chaos Predator, Autocannon, Lascannons sponsons, Havoc Launcher, 145pts

total = 1400

then u can add a few things to buff up ur guys with the extra points. then that would be a pretty riper list.

 

[D-A-C]

Hey Right Hand of Khorne, I don't know if I really like the idea of using chosen especially like that. As I said, the Tyranids I face are more of a Nidzilla list, with a Swarmlord, Trygon Prime, Tervagon and Warriors and Zoanthropes.

But I'm not looking to tailor my list to any one opponent as I would like to be able to use it in some tournaments. So what would everybody with tournament experience think if they drew up against my 1500pts list?

Finally, I moved the 1500pts list up and into the original post for everyone's viewing convenience, so any other opinions / ideas?

 

[right hand of khorne]

if u dont like 4 flamers, maybe u would go for a squad with 1 flamer and 3 meltas or 1 flamer and 3 plasmas for 145pts and 160pts respectively.
u could play around with their weapons options and tailor them for killing MC's as well. (i kept the flamer in there for good measure against termies, homies, stealers, but u can replace it if u want).

i just think that versing a heavily orientated MC list, u should be able to out maneuver then using a rhino and block line of site (useless against hive guard though). but if it happens to get into cc against a MC, its not going to provide them much more cover. and because there not going to be in it for a while cause u want them to get out and shoot thing or be a gunline, this further emphasises the use of just a rhino instead of a LR.
but its what ever u like best, and suits ur taste.

 

[D-A-C]

Hey Right Hand of Khorne, he actually usually does use x2 Hive Guard although he used x4 in the last game, and those indirect fire missiles are a b*tch lol.

Anyways I don't think I'll use chosen, to be honest I can't see the point of the unit, no extra attacks, not fearless, and 3 points more for either a free move or a random outflank. IMO 3 Termicides are better as at worst you will be 12" scattering and thats unlikely as the average is 6". But thanks for taking the time to comment.

But does no-one else have anything to say about the list? It seems awfully quiet for a board with so many views.

 

[Tzeen Qhayshek]

What exactly are you using the Land Raider for? At first glance and ignoring all of the other posts, it doesn't seem to have a use.

I would keep the Predator if it had more dakka, but it doesn't so I would drop it. If you are battling Tyranids, singular lascannon shots really do you anything. With 'Nids, I find that more guns is always the answer.

As others have said, I would drop the Chaos Lord in favor of a Daemon Prince, but I would keep him if he had a Jump Pack. +D6 attacks with the Blissgiver would be great as a support option for your infantry.

If you are indeed going up against 'Nids, the two CSM squads with their vehicle-cracking meltas aren't doing you anything either. Drop them in favor of more Noise Marines. With your Noise Marines, drop the Doom Siren unless you are dedicating them as assault units to clear objectives. If you are going for a gunline army, use the Sonic Blaster/Blastmaster combo and mow down swathes of 'Nids. The ultimate pest control.

By dropping the other two CSM squads, and the Land Raider, you could take four squads of Noise Marines. I would do that for sure. And for a gunline army, you could drop the Rhinos as well.

Lastly, the poor, lonely Vindicator. I would give him a buddy. Maybe even two buddies. You *might* be able to squeeze in a third Vindicator.

 

[D-A-C]

I must admit I'm suprised to find myself defending the use of a Land Raider, on many threads I'm they guy saying how much they suck.

Why I have it in this list is because I have 400pts tied up in the Lord / Noise Marine combo and I think they need a big babysitter in the form of the LR in order to get them where they need to be. The ramp comes down 18 bolter shots, use Doom Siren, assult what is left, and because my Lord is Int 6 hopefully insta kill anything left, even if he fails my champion has 4 PW attacks, as well as 24 regular attacks from the NM. Whats not to like lol?

Plus if I'm playing a list with either a Hammerhead, or Lemon Russ' etc it can advance 12" pop smoke, then fire those two twin-linked lascannon shots at high priority targets and only after those are gone, deposit its contents.

It also makes the opponent choose between either it or the Vindicator, and that will leave my lascannon / autocannon wielding Predator to get into a great firing lane in turns one and two.

My only real concern is the thrid troop choice, I chose to duplicate the CSM squad from the 1000pts list, but would I be better served using just ten Lesser Daemons for 130pts and using those points for something more constructive? Or maybe a second Noise Marine squad instead, but what configuartion?

As always any and all comments are welcome. Am I wrong in my thinking? Am I missing a trick or two? Most importantly I would really enjoy any real comments about how people would react upon seeing this list in a tournament. So what do you say folks?