Warhammer 40k Forum and Wargaming Forums banner

1 - 16 of 16 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,372 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Lethal Shadows

HQ

Autarch: 155
- Jetbike, mandiblasters, reaper launcher, laser lance

Uses JSJ to plink away at heavy infantry and light vehicles with the other jetbikes.


ELITES

Harlequins x7: 184
- Shadowseer, 7 kisses

Veil means that the enemy pretty much has to be in my kill zone to shoot them. Adds some solid melee backbone to my army.


TROOPS

Guardian Jetbikes x6: 152
- 2 Shuriken Cannons

Guardian Jetbikes x3: 76
- 1 Shuriken Cannon

These guys use JSJ and turboboosting to stay out of harm and capture objectives


FAST ATTACK

Swooping Hawks x5: 147
- Exarch with Hawk's Talon, Skyleap, and Intercept

Swooping Hawks x5: 147
- Exarch with Hawk's Talon, Skyleap, and Intercept

Swooping Hawks x5: 147
- Exarch with Hawk's Talon, Skyleap, and Intercept

Either start in reserves or skyleap on the first turn, then when they deepstrike in they drop bombs at the beginning of the turn and skyleap during movement so that they are never on the board during my foe's turn. While the Autarch lives they come in on round 2 on a 3+, round 3 on a 2+, and round 4 and after automatically. On round 6 they actually stay on the board to shoot up some stuff and capture objectives. As needed they can stick around to assault some vehicles or shoot up some infantry.


HEAVY SUPPORT

Vibrocannon Battery x3: 150

Sit behind cover and shoot without needing LoS

Fire Prism: 170
- Shuriken Cannon, Holo-fields, Spirit Stones

Fire Prism: 170
- Shuriken Cannon, Holo-fields, Spirit Stones

Those damn Eldar skimmers you always hear about. Basically the only units that can be shot at. Need them for killing vehicles and MEQs. I love having 2 since it lets me combine the beams into a str 6 ap 3 large blast for MEQs or a str 10 ap 1 small blast for heavy tanks. The normal shots can handle light infantry and TEQs as well.

Army Total: 1498

The concept of eldar that are almost impossible to shoot has been done before, but unlike previous iterations I think this army actually has a shot at winning rather than pulling a draw. ATM this army is somewhat weak to mechanized armies (especially mechtau or eldar) and heavy infantry armies like SM. It excels against light infantry or horde armies. Basilisks ruin its whole day.

So, thoughts? Improvements that can be made? I have never personally fielded harlies, guardian jetbikes, autarchs, or swooping hawks, so there's a good chance that some points could be shifted in this army to glean a little more edge out. Mainly though, do you think this army could actually win while maintaining its annoyance factor?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,372 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
Razor Shadows

HQ

Autarch: 155
- Jetbike, mandiblasters, reaper launcher, laser lance

No changes to this guy. He's been doing a decent job with his reaper launcher, though doesn't earn his points back unless he gets in a good charge against an expensive target. Might drop the mandiblasters since I'm 1 point over with this list. Most opponents don't care about a point.


ELITES

Harlequins x6: 162
- Shadowseer, 6 kisses

Harlequins x6: 162
- Shadowseer, 6 kisses

Added more harlies in so that once the enemy finally does get close enough to breach my cover they'll have to deal with enough harlequins to make any unit think twice. 2 squads means more opportunities for a good fleet roll and they can be split to deal with different threats.


TROOPS

Guardian Jetbikes x6: 152
- 2 Shuriken Cannons

Guardian Jetbikes x3: 76
- 1 Shuriken Cannon

No changes here. These guys are solid. I find that the big squad can put out enough to mow down infantry who get too close effectively while the small squad is more of a heckler that takes targets of opportunity with it's cannon.

FAST ATTACK

Swooping Hawks x5: 142
- Exarch with Hawk's Talon and Skyleap

Swooping Hawks x5: 142
- Exarch with Hawk's Talon and Skyleap

Dropped one of the squads because they really weren't killing much with their grenade packs. However, they're great at being flexible. In game 1, I had one squad deep strike out of LoS and then charge 5 pathfinders on the next round. They only have 1 attack each base but they've got the init, WS, and plasma grenades to do a great job when they get the charge bonus to double their attacks. In game 2 they stayed on the board to shoot at my opponent's rapidly closing forces. Hawks aren't great at any one thing. They're pretty good at killing infantry but their real role is being where you need them to be and being able to handle a wide variety of things in appropriate situations.


HEAVY SUPPORT

Fire Prism: 170
- Shuriken Cannon, Holo-fields, Spirit Stones

Fire Prism: 170
- Shuriken Cannon, Holo-fields, Spirit Stones

Fire Prism: 170
- Shuriken Cannon, Holo-fields, Spirit Stones

Dropped the vibrocannons to make the army more versatile instead of defensive and completely mobile. 3 fire prisms are a pain to take down and make it so I can consistently get those nice linked shots off to get str 10 ap 1 shots (eldar railguns!) or str 6 ap 3 shots (bye-bye MEQs).

Army Total: 1501

Out of the 2 games so far both have been against other eldar, one of which had a big jetbike council and dark reapers/harlies/pathfinders and the other army was 3 big mobs of storm guardians, banshees, harlies, a farseer, 2 wraithlords, and yriel. The first guy killed my guardian jetbikes and vibrocannons and knocked all the guns off a prism and I killed off his entire army except the council+farseer, which I knocked both the council and the farseer out of scoring so I could capture all table quarters. The second guy killed my harlies and I killed off his entire army. 2 victorious slaughters, though both armies were using a significant amount of substandard units like dark reapers and storm guardians.

Overall it's been a really fun army to play, and not just because I slaughtered both opponents. I like really mobile armies and this one certainly fits the bill. It's very cover-reliant though, and I'm sure a basilisk would ruin my day (another good reason to have the extra prism). It generally remains to be seen how it fares against shooty armies. Against assault armies, or especially against footslogging assault armies, it does a great job. Once the enemy gets close to whatever cover I was using I can just turboboost somewhere else.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
954 Posts
HQ

Autarch: 155
- Jetbike, mandiblasters, reaper launcher, laser lance
I dont really see anything worng with him. I still perfer the melta gun however. The reason for this is that if he's using the melta gun he's not hiding and so he is more likely to be charging and killing stuff.

ELITES

Harlequins x6: 162
- Shadowseer, 6 kisses

Harlequins x6: 162
- Shadowseer, 6 kisses
I hate harlies! GAY, GAY, GAY, Super rare enigmatic mystical warriors that appear to be in everybodies bloody army nowadays! I (grudgingly) accept that they will do well for you.
TROOPS

Guardian Jetbikes x6: 152
- 2 Shuriken Cannons

Guardian Jetbikes x3: 76
- 1 Shuriken Cannon

Im surprised you didnt split the top unit into 2. 6 bike might be to big a template for what you are using these guy's for.

FAST ATTACK

Swooping Hawks x5: 142
- Exarch with Hawk's Talon and Skyleap

Swooping Hawks x5: 142
- Exarch with Hawk's Talon and Skyleap
I use "A" unit similer to this, yes it's annoying but the more of this you see, the more IQ lords with mystics seem to appear! lol
HEAVY SUPPORT

Fire Prism: 170
- Shuriken Cannon, Holo-fields, Spirit Stones

Fire Prism: 170
- Shuriken Cannon, Holo-fields, Spirit Stones

Fire Prism: 170
- Shuriken Cannon, Holo-fields, Spirit Stones
Just when i thought there was hope that an Elder player would use something other than 3 holo tanks!! In truth 3 prisims dont bother me. I dont have to kill them, and unlike falcons they dont have a little suprise in side!!
Army Total: 1501

Yup, i'd get rid of that point!! Yes its a frustrating army, but whats more frustrating is that somebody would actually want to play with it! Roll on 5th ed when people with have to take troops!


MarzM
38:11
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,372 Posts
Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
That's a good suggestion with the jetbikes, though I think I'll keep them in the big unit so that there are more wounds to go through before I start losing shuriken cannons. You also mentioned that the autarch will be more likely to be charging and killing stuff if he has a fusion gun, but the point of the army is to be sneaky and unexposed. Charging stuff is usually a last resort or done based on opportunity. As is, I have the option to sit back and shoot or get up in their face an charge, and I like it that way.

I also saw a lot of comments about how much you hate units like harlies and holotanks. The point of this exercise is to come up with an annoying list. Eldar that do their best not to even allow the opponent a shot at anything that isn't an eldar skimmer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
954 Posts
Well i've played with and against eldar for a very long time. Eldar are fast and fragile. It used to be about having the right unit in the right place at the right time. Nowadays it's about having the unkillable unit all the time. It's just not the same!

I see the point of what you re trying to do, and please dont take this personally. I just really hate what Eldar have become under the new rules. It's usually not the long time players, but those who jump from power army to power army.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
280 Posts
I personnally think that both of your lists have big holes in them and wouldn's stand up to too many competitive Tournament lists. But they would probably frustrate a quite a number of players the first game the played against them.

If you want a run down on whats wrong with them, just think about some of this:
Chaos Bomb with 2 Lash Whips.
Nidzilla with Dakka Fezes, Flyrant, and Genestealers.
Whirlwind, Landspeeder, Terminator Hybrid lists.
Other Mech Eldar.
Other Hybrid Eldar.
FireWarrior / Suit Tau.

Let me know your toughts on how to deal with these, and then I'll tell you how they can serioulsy exploit your list.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,372 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
It's not really intended to be competitive. It's a one-shtick army, and as such when the one shtick doesn't work, it will fail.

However, I'm not too terribly worried about most of what you posted.
Other hybrid/mech eldar would be a toss-up, depending on how many falcons they take. Would be an interesting cat and mouse game. However, the turn after they get out of their transports, they're toast.
Fire warrior/suit tau don't worry me overmuch as if they deepstrike in, the harlies get them, and otherwise they need LoS. A good balanced tau list would make it hard for my fire prisms to be effective due to railgunning/missile pods though.
Lash of submission also doesn't bother me overmuch, as it needs LoS. Not sure what a chaos bomb is. If it's deepstriking, the prisms get to have a field day with clumped up squads.
Nidzilla doesn't worry me because harlies can handle MCs and they're too slow to get around the cover and a flyrant can be focused on. I've fought lists with wraithlords, and that's basically the same thing. A stealer army with MC support could be a real pain, but fleet of claw is no match for turbo boost.
I'd actually really like to fight a deep strike terminator list with this army. Harlies and autarch could inflict great damage in CC, jetbikes could simply get away, and best of all fire prisms can drop ap 2 templates on nice tightly packed terminator groups. /drool

Honestly, the strongest thing against this army is a basilisk tank with indirect fire. I'm surprised that didn't make the list. Any sort of guess weapon will work well though (but almost no one takes them but guard armies). Drop pod armies would also be decent, though vulnerable to being fire prismed. It's a list with one shtick, but that happens to work well against most opponents. I'd say my list has a pretty good shot at success against most of the army themes posted as kicking its butt. Against armies more vulnerable to its shtick, the results would likely be even better.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
181 Posts
consider dropping a fire prism and some jetbikes, and invest in a 5unit of shining spears?

turbo boost them by a building, then use the 6inch eldar jetbike move to move behind it, if the autarch is with them, then enemy will almost surely send some firepower to deal with them (would you ignore 16 str 6 power weapon attacks? with the ability to hit and run?)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,281 Posts
You can't move in the assault phase after you turbo-boosted.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
280 Posts
It's not really intended to be competitive. It's a one-shtick army, and as such when the one shtick doesn't work, it will fail.

However, I'm not too terribly worried about most of what you posted.
Other hybrid/mech eldar would be a toss-up, depending on how many falcons they take. Would be an interesting cat and mouse game. However, the turn after they get out of their transports, they're toast.
Fire warrior/suit tau don't worry me overmuch as if they deepstrike in, the harlies get them, and otherwise they need LoS. A good balanced tau list would make it hard for my fire prisms to be effective due to railgunning/missile pods though.
Lash of submission also doesn't bother me overmuch, as it needs LoS. Not sure what a chaos bomb is. If it's deepstriking, the prisms get to have a field day with clumped up squads.
Nidzilla doesn't worry me because harlies can handle MCs and they're too slow to get around the cover and a flyrant can be focused on. I've fought lists with wraithlords, and that's basically the same thing. A stealer army with MC support could be a real pain, but fleet of claw is no match for turbo boost.
I'd actually really like to fight a deep strike terminator list with this army. Harlies and autarch could inflict great damage in CC, jetbikes could simply get away, and best of all fire prisms can drop ap 2 templates on nice tightly packed terminator groups. /drool

Honestly, the strongest thing against this army is a basilisk tank with indirect fire. I'm surprised that didn't make the list. Any sort of guess weapon will work well though (but almost no one takes them but guard armies). Drop pod armies would also be decent, though vulnerable to being fire prismed. It's a list with one shtick, but that happens to work well against most opponents. I'd say my list has a pretty good shot at success against most of the army themes posted as kicking its butt. Against armies more vulnerable to its shtick, the results would likely be even better.
What you are relying on is that no-one will get LOS on your units (especially the Harlies) I have found that in reality, an army with multiple units will simply take multiple tests on the Harlies and they will shoot the crap out of them. Other Eldar, Firewarrior/suit Tau, etc... The Whirlwind SM army I sited is actually simular to the Basilisk IG army you mentioned exept it gets Deepstrike and has fast vehicles as well as indirect fire. You missed my Nidzilla point on Dakka, not assault, and Chaos Bombs can normally assault you on turn 2 as well as having Lash Whip(s) to help direct you.

You seriously missed the point aobut Runes of Warding, as it shuts down things like "Fury of hte Ancients", Lash Whips, etc... and I don't find Falcon inpossible to beat down, a smart opponent will shake them as often as possible and simply block their Exit until he is ready to deal with the cargo. I also never mentioned "Fast Necron Armies", as well as others; but again they are another whole story.....

If you like the list, then use it... I was simply stating it was a One Trick Pony, as you said yourself. Sorry to have bothered you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,372 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
What you are relying on is that no-one will get LOS on your units (especially the Harlies) I have found that in reality, an army with multiple units will simply take multiple tests on the Harlies and they will shoot the crap out of them. Other Eldar, Firewarrior/suit Tau, etc... The Whirlwind SM army I sited is actually simular to the Basilisk IG army you mentioned exept it gets Deepstrike and has fast vehicles as well as indirect fire. You missed my Nidzilla point on Dakka, not assault, and Chaos Bombs can normally assault you on turn 2 as well as having Lash Whip(s) to help direct you.

You seriously missed the point aobut Runes of Warding, as it shuts down things like "Fury of hte Ancients", Lash Whips, etc... and I don't find Falcon inpossible to beat down, a smart opponent will shake them as often as possible and simply block their Exit until he is ready to deal with the cargo. I also never mentioned "Fast Necron Armies", as well as others; but again they are another whole story.....

If you like the list, then use it... I was simply stating it was a One Trick Pony, as you said yourself. Sorry to have bothered you.
The deal with the harlies is that their veil ability gives opponents a max range of 24". No matter how many tests are taken the number can never exceed this. Their ability to move through cover also sets up some interesting opportunities.

Why I'm worried less about a whirlwind than a basilisk is that the jetbikes have 3+ saves which the basilisk ignores but the whirlwind doesn't.

I don't think I missed any point about runes of warding, as no point was brought up. A farseer probably would be better mechanically in this army than my autarch, but I don't get many opportunities to play with autarchs.

As far as nidzilla goes I was actually talking about dakka and assault, as both are fairly short ranged and both require the creatures to get around whatever cover I'm hiding behind to get at my jetbikes.

I still haven't the foggiest idea of what a chaos bomb is. I did a search for it and the only person that uses the term on these boards is you, yet you seem to expect others to be familiar with it.

And I'm not in the least bothered. I like to talk about these things otherwise I wouldn't have posted the list. You asked me what I thought of this list's ability to counter the lists you posted, so I did.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
280 Posts
I don't feel that your list would be stronger with a Farseer; but with a Farseer and the Autarch, as I actually see the use for both (+1 reserve roles, etc)

VOT does not give hte Harlies a 24" Bubble, as it does not work on everything. Things that don't require LOS or direct targeting of a unit (like the "Fury of the Ancients") can be serioulsy dangerous to Harlies.

-- Necrons with Veil of Death (thats a Lord with ResOrb and Veil of Darkness and a Large Immortal and/or Large Warrior squads) can often appear right in front of the Harlis so range is not problem for them.

-- Droppods can do the same sort of thing

-- Smart opponetns will limit the table on you, so that its very difficult to have 24" of range, ever. And they will have multiple units to do it with. Your army is cool; but it lacks diversity to make it truely responsive to all races, all styles, etc.

-- As for the Chaos Bomb, I will go and get a few referneces for you, as they rally do need a bit of tactical rundown to go, think of Lash of Submission, Deathguard, and the likes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,195 Posts
As I understand, Indirect fire weaponry such as a Basalisk and Smart Missile systems are not required to check for distance. The VoT rule forces a model to make a spot check, rules for spotting require you to have LoS and models that indirect fire don't need to spot or have LoS.

Fluff wise, VoT removes the harlies from the players "mind". In the case of the smart missile systems, the computer still sees them there, but the pilot doesn't think there is anything there. He trusts his computer and continues to fire.

Of course you could go as far as saying that VoT doesn't allow the pilot to see the data on the computer, but I think thats a little far fetched.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,372 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
As I understand, Indirect fire weaponry such as a Basalisk and Smart Missile systems are not required to check for distance. The VoT rule forces a model to make a spot check, rules for spotting require you to have LoS and models that indirect fire don't need to spot or have LoS.

Fluff wise, VoT removes the harlies from the players "mind". In the case of the smart missile systems, the computer still sees them there, but the pilot doesn't think there is anything there. He trusts his computer and continues to fire.

Of course you could go as far as saying that VoT doesn't allow the pilot to see the data on the computer, but I think thats a little far fetched.
We actually had an interesting discussion on this recently on these boards. Basically what we came up with is that RAW, even indirect fire units can't target harlies if they're out of the veil range. There is a little clause in night fighting, stealth suits, grey knight shrouding, and all other similar abilities that says indirect weapons just roll an extra die for scatter and take highest. The harlequin veil provides no such addendum for indirect weapons. It simply says that if they're out of range they can't target the unit. However, there's a whirlwind variant that lays mines, and that one can do it b/c is can target the ground between the models. Fury of the ancients and vibrocannons likewise can hit harlies because they just draw a line and don't have to target a unit.

However, as often happens, RAW is kind of stupid in this case.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
280 Posts
Chaos Bomb
>
> Here is the basic Idea, or how many of them work.
>
> HQ
> (155) DP: Wings, MoS, LoSub.
> (155) DP: Wings, MoS, LoSub.
> Speedy assaults and to set up enemy units.
> Tr
> (243) 8 Khorne Berzerkers: Skull Champ with PF, mounted in Rhino.
> (243) 8 Khorne Berzerkers: Skull Champ with PF, mounted in Rhino.
> Loads of attacks, speed and/or mobile terrain, and the PF's to give them a
chance on any target.
> FA
> (250) 9 Raptors: Asp Champ with PF, IoCG, 2 Melta-Guns.
> Tough as nails, fast to go with the DP's, etc, and again the PF to make sure that they have a chance on any target, their almost Fearless, and they can drop armour as well with their shooting.
> HS
> (150) 2 Obilits
> (150) 2 Obilits
> (150) 2 Obilits
> This is simply one of the cheapest, dirtiest things to
provide loads of supporting fire (to deal with Armour, etc).
>
> Total 1496, 8 Scoring Units.
>
> Tactics.
> Use the Speed of the army to get where needed early, or use the Rhinos as Mobile terrain while the Oblits take out priority targets. The LoSub sets the enemy where needed for shooting/assault purposes and should generally get me in CC on turn 2 (hopefully) or at least bunch the enemy units to shoot, or even just push them around to remove their Assault/shooting potential. Now I know that Escalation would hamper this army (a Lot) and things like the Runes of Warding could hurt (a Lot)....

Does that help to clear up what the Average Chaos Bomb comprises of (dirty tricks that allow Chaos to exploit the strengths and thrust the enemy right inot the waiting hands of Chaos ?

Now the list above is actually tame, as the list you showed with Eldar is tame... If the Chaos list were to be truely competative, it would use 2 Solid squads of Plague Marines, 2 squads of Thousand sons Terminators, 2 Defilers, and the 2 Lash DP's.... As it can cut off the table "Uber" quickly and then herde the enemy as needed to plogh through... This is one of the reasons that I strongly advice in favour of the Runes of Warding to shut down psykers, and Eldar should always be focused on synergy, not individual unit strengths or capabilities.

I hope that clears things up, and sorry if I look at things from a competitive standpoint instead of Themed... Its just that I actually think you can combine the two if your serious.
 
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
Top