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Grand Lord Munchkin
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Seriously? Seriously? :laugh:
 

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No way, he scares the crap out of me, at beginners 40k today we were all asking him questions (newbie stuff) and he shouted so loud in rage that I was deaf for at-least 1minute, gets worse, he has this warahammer fantasy metal templaty thingy or something, and when he got annoyed he started waking the table, and very nearly broke my terminator squad :S
 

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Fair enough, If i was working in a shop and wassurrounded by people who haden't read the rules i'd be pretty pissed.
 

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Eh. We may not be squashed too badly if the Emperor's finest showed up.

We've already made a Land Raider (check the youtube video) so we can do what a good SM would do and hide in it until it's blown up and then come out weapons a blazing (and we can probably even move/shoot/assault in the same turn unlike them!).
 

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You got a link there Stalkerzero?
 

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The Emperor Protects
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In all fairness he sounds like a collossal tool, one which probably got bullied whilst he was in school so has now decided to take years of repressed anger and torment out on new gamers. I would simply tell him to fuck off.
 

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In all fairness, if it was a case of fighting on the ground only (no orbital stuff) we would win.
Which is why it's unfortunate that the Imperium would be coming from orbit.

the Imperial guard wouldn't be to happy when they see that our tanks (Challenger mk.2, Abrams m1a1 and the leopard II for example) can hit their tanks from outside their own range, are less of a target due to their smaller build and have stronger armour.
What do they care? They have more tanks than we have people. And really why are they deploying so far away from us? Drop it on their heads I say.

The guard would win battle due to massive numbers, but they would take some pretty damn heavy casualties due to the weapons we use combined with out tactics. And seeings that our planes would easily beat the imperial flyer, we would own the skies, so with the support of planes and helicopters ground battles might actually swing our way.
Again, what do they care? The guard would be willing to blanket this world with their corpses if that was what it would take. They are perfectly willing to take these kinds of casualties. We are not. As soon as casualty reports start reaching civilians (which they will) you can expect massive backlash and a crumbling political will. They can and will sustain damages that we will and can not.

As far as space marines go, If a lasgun can has been seen to penetrate a suit of power armour, a normal 5.56mm round might strungle, but any of the bigger calibre ammunition wound probably get through, so 12.7/ .50 cal, 40mm grenades, 20mm & 30mm cannon etc. would probably do the damage. Besides, we have neutron bombs specifically designed to kill the people inside the armour.
Lasguns cannot penetrate power armour. Boltguns cannot penetrate power armour. Nothing shy of a hellgun (that word is better) can penetrate power armour. Guardsmen can occasionally kill marines by hitting them in the joints enough, unfortunately we don't have the numbers to just keep shooting at them while they butcher us.

The elite troops we have would be better than the elite troops that the guard have, sostrikes from them would be pretty effective against any groud based targets that the imperials would have, that combined with our arial support, naval capabilities and extreme long range smart weapons their supply routes and command structure wouldn't last to long once it has been located.
Why do you assume our special forces are better? No offense but how many of them have been raised from birth to kill? My money's on not very many. The Imperium breeds psyco-killers and super humans. People living on Catachan, Kreig or Cadia would all be superior (physically) to modern-humans. Thousands of years of selective breeding will do that.

Tactically we may be better but reading some BL stuff (Gaunt's Ghosts in particular) I get the impression that tactics aren't always that simple in 40k. Not to mention the fact that they have more tactical options than us, including another theater of war (orbit) that we can't even enter.

And as far as shooting nukes into orbit goes, good luck with that. We do not have the capability to launch nukes beyond our atmosphere. We do not even have the capability to go to the moon anymore. All the Imperium has to do is sit out there and occasionally shoot at us. Plus, I'm pretty certain that nukes are the standard in ship-to-ship combat in 40k (not certain on this) and so void-shields are perfectly capable of holding off at least a few. And if nukes aren't the standard than that means there less effective, because it means the Imperium rejected them as a weapon.

In conclusion. We'd be pooched. We wouldn't stand a chance.
 

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Sadly, the world would be destroyed, because they would see the warring nations and different religions and declare us 'lost' even if some people wanted to embrace Imperial rule.
 

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The Emperor Protects
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Yeah i'm with MEQinc, you are putting way, way, waaaaaaaay to much stock in our equipment. Worringly so. I seriously doubt our tank armour is better than a Leman Russ or a Predator. Our special forces are excellent yes, but they don't hold a candle to stormtrooprs, Kasrkin, Catachans or the Tanith and a multitude of other units. 5.56 would stuggle against carapace armour, never mind power armour, shit 7.62 would struggle against carapace. I'm not so sure a .50 cal would be able to cut apart power armour either, i don't think you realise just how good it is. And even then, all our .50 cals are on WMIK's, Jackals etc, all of which would be taken out instantly without any trouble. Our air support would be shot out of the sky so fast it wouldn't even be funny. Speed does not equal superiority.

And their numbers, regardless of tactics they would wipe the floor with us, we couldn't even being to try and equal the numbers they would throw out at us, and then theres their tank squadrons, which would just flatten anything heavy we have.

Don't even get us started on when they call down Titans, something we couldn't even hope to beat, their void shields would withstand nukes and even if they couldn't, by nuking a titan we've now denied ourselves a huge portion of ground we can't fight in because of radiation, but the Imperium still can.

The Astartes would just destroy us, shit one chapter would very likely be able to whipe us out with no support from the Guard. Not that they would need to call in the Astartes against us.

And all of that is without orbital support, and you still think we would win? Shit you have a very high opinion of our armed forces, i'm flattered you think we are that good, but seriously, we aren't. I sure as fuck wouldn't want to go into a firefight with the Imperium and i gurantee very few of the lads would want to either.

Then let's add in orbital support, which they will use. That alone will whipe out all our airfields, barracks, depots and major cities.

The battle for earth would be over in days, with us surrendering almost immediately. And if the worlds leaders didn't surrender, the population would probably overthrow them and surrender instead, and if we didn't do that. We. Would. Die.
 

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A counter argument.....


Which is why it's unfortunate that the Imperium would be coming from orbit.

Which is why I said IF, there has been numerous occasions when a planet has been taken from the ground by regular forces because a bombardment would damage something important on the planet.


What do they care? They have more tanks than we have people. And really why are they deploying so far away from us? Drop it on their heads I say.

Imperial guard units cannot use anything like drop pods, and they use orbital landers for most of their deployments. Stand idea is that you put your forces down somewhere safe and then go fight it out. IF an orbital lander was taken down because it was in range of enemy forces how would that help anything the imperium was trying to do? Our current tanks have better anti-tank weapons, better armour, better computer systems & optics and in some cases can drive underwater

Again, what do they care? The guard would be willing to blanket this world with their corpses if that was what it would take. They are perfectly willing to take these kinds of casualties. We are not. As soon as casualty reports start reaching civilians (which they will) you can expect massive backlash and a crumbling political will. They can and will sustain damages that we will and can not.

Casualty reports during a planet wide battle, not gonna happen. The imperial guard wouldn't be willing to blanket the world with their bodies to win, no commander who is running a planet wide assault would do something as stupid as that, especially against a foe who can fight properly.

Lasguns cannot penetrate power armour. Boltguns cannot penetrate power armour. Nothing shy of a hellgun (that word is better) can penetrate power armour. Guardsmen can occasionally kill marines by hitting them in the joints enough, unfortunately we don't have the numbers to just keep shooting at them while they butcher us.

Again, where are you getting this from? There has been numerous cases documented in the Fluff of 40k where SM power armour has been penetrated by las-fire, boltshells, autogun fire etc. I wouldnt think we would be to far off from matching that.


Why do you assume our special forces are better? No offense but how many of them have been raised from birth to kill? My money's on not very many. The Imperium breeds psyco-killers and super humans. People living on Catachan, Kreig or Cadia would all be superior (physically) to modern-humans. Thousands of years of selective breeding will do that.

No offense, but most of the worlds where the population is tuaght to fight from birth is where they get through the most soldiers, Cadia being the best example, where they have to fight due to the proximity of chaos. The current special forces we have our trained well and are (in the uk) already veterans with lots of previous combat experience before they can even try and enter the special forces.

Tactically we may be better but reading some BL stuff (Gaunt's Ghosts in particular) I get the impression that tactics aren't always that simple in 40k. Not to mention the fact that they have more tactical options than us, including another theater of war (orbit) that we can't even enter.

We arn't talking 40k, we are talking about here and now. In 40k troops get used as cannon fodder, a tactical withdrawl is often punished by death and soldiers are often blindly lead into conflicts without any real intel. Our current command and control structure is better. We have the home field advantage.

And as far as shooting nukes into orbit goes, good luck with that. We do not have the capability to launch nukes beyond our atmosphere. We do not even have the capability to go to the moon anymore. All the Imperium has to do is sit out there and occasionally shoot at us. Plus, I'm pretty certain that nukes are the standard in ship-to-ship combat in 40k (not certain on this) and so void-shields are perfectly capable of holding off at least a few. And if nukes aren't the standard than that means there less effective, because it means the Imperium rejected them as a weapon.

So, ummm..... How exactly do intercontinental rockets work? I might not be an expert, but last time i looked, they went up into the upper atmosphere and then came back down to hit their designated targets. As far as the impeium using Atomics as a ship-to-ship weapon, they don't really seem to do that, they use regular missiles, cannons and energy weapons. Shields are great, but if they can be collapsed by regular weapons, Atomics are going to deffinately do something against them especially the Russian Tsar bomba type weapons in excess of 100megatons. If (like you said) Atomics wouldn't do anything, then why are fighters used in ship-to-ship warfare??

In conclusion. We'd be pooched. We wouldn't stand a chance

Not pooched, we wouldn't win but then again they wouldn't just walk over us, If it was a fight on the ground we could deffinately give them a good pounding, just not one that would ultimately win it for us.
As far as our Aerial units go, they arn't just fast, the have countermeasures against missiles, and target locks. Jamming systems and Anti-armour, anti-air weapons. Most of the imperial stuff relies on line of sight.

The current human fighting forces are closer to the Tau forces than the Imperium or the Astartes.
 

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The Emperor Protects
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Hmmmmmm i dont think so


Which is why it's unfortunate that the Imperium would be coming from orbit.

Which is why I said IF, there has been numerous occasions when a planet has been taken from the ground by regular forces because a bombardment would damage something important on the planet.

Ok lets, ignore oribital support for now.



What do they care? They have more tanks than we have people. And really why are they deploying so far away from us? Drop it on their heads I say.

Imperial guard units cannot use anything like drop pods, and they use orbital landers for most of their deployments. Stand idea is that you put your forces down somewhere safe and then go fight it out. IF an orbital lander was taken down because it was in range of enemy forces how would that help anything the imperium was trying to do? Our current tanks have better anti-tank weapons, better armour, better computer systems & optics and in some cases can drive underwater

Ok. But they will just keep sending lander after lander after lander down, no matter how many we shoot down, they will have enough to get a massive amount of troops on the ground. And if you don't think they would be willing to sacrifice that many troops, then you are very wrong. Our current tanks to NOT have better anti-tank weapons than the Imperium does, or armour, where are you getting this idea from? And their optics are definetly better than ours i would argue. Have you actuall read novels which feature tanks in them like some of the Gaunts Ghosts novels? They are horrifingly effective

Again, what do they care? The guard would be willing to blanket this world with their corpses if that was what it would take. They are perfectly willing to take these kinds of casualties. We are not. As soon as casualty reports start reaching civilians (which they will) you can expect massive backlash and a crumbling political will. They can and will sustain damages that we will and can not.

Casualty reports during a planet wide battle, not gonna happen. The imperial guard wouldn't be willing to blanket the world with their bodies to win, no commander who is running a planet wide assault would do something as stupid as that, especially against a foe who can fight properly.

Won't happen? why? the media would be all over it, the moment a single soldier is killed in afghan the media report it instantly. The Media are not on the governments side, people would of course find out. And again, are you looking at the same Imperium as us? Of course they would be willing to blanket the world with men if thats what it took. Again read novels like Gaunts Ghosts and you will be outstanded at just how uncaring alot of Guard Generals are about their men. They lose whole regiments in a day without batting an eyelid, just a little annoyed that they may have to stay their another day longer.

Lasguns cannot penetrate power armour. Boltguns cannot penetrate power armour. Nothing shy of a hellgun (that word is better) can penetrate power armour. Guardsmen can occasionally kill marines by hitting them in the joints enough, unfortunately we don't have the numbers to just keep shooting at them while they butcher us.

Again, where are you getting this from? There has been numerous cases documented in the Fluff of 40k where SM power armour has been penetrated by las-fire, boltshells, autogun fire etc. I wouldnt think we would be to far off from matching that.

You may be right about lasguns etc being able to damage power armour, but 5.56 and 7.62 sure as hell wouldn't, and we simply don't have enough .50 cals, and the ones we do have would be targeted straight away.


Why do you assume our special forces are better? No offense but how many of them have been raised from birth to kill? My money's on not very many. The Imperium breeds psyco-killers and super humans. People living on Catachan, Kreig or Cadia would all be superior (physically) to modern-humans. Thousands of years of selective breeding will do that.

No offense, but most of the worlds where the population is tuaght to fight from birth is where they get through the most soldiers, Cadia being the best example, where they have to fight due to the proximity of chaos. The current special forces we have our trained well and are (in the uk) already veterans with lots of previous combat experience before they can even try and enter the special forces.


Sorry but what? Cadians fight from birth, they are taught to be soldiers form the moment they can walk, a regular cadian is the equal of our special forces, they've been in fights out lads couldn't even comprehend. And as for the Kasrkin, read Eisenhorn if you want an insight into how much better they are. And about guys in the SAS having loads of combat experience before they go in, not always the case. And even then they don't have anything near the combat experience of regular guard units, never mind Catachans, Cadians, The Tanith, Mordians etc

Tactically we may be better but reading some BL stuff (Gaunt's Ghosts in particular) I get the impression that tactics aren't always that simple in 40k. Not to mention the fact that they have more tactical options than us, including another theater of war (orbit) that we can't even enter.

We arn't talking 40k, we are talking about here and now. In 40k troops get used as cannon fodder, a tactical withdrawl is often punished by death and soldiers are often blindly lead into conflicts without any real intel. Our current command and control structure is better. We have the home field advantage.


Yes they may do, but again if you read Gaunts Ghosts and other fiction you can see that alot of Guard units are incredibly good, even when their commander use them as cannon fodder they still use very good tactics and win good solid victories. And as for our intelligence and the homeground. Are you in the forces? Cause trust me, our intel sucks at the best of times. I can tell you that from experience

And as far as shooting nukes into orbit goes, good luck with that. We do not have the capability to launch nukes beyond our atmosphere. We do not even have the capability to go to the moon anymore. All the Imperium has to do is sit out there and occasionally shoot at us. Plus, I'm pretty certain that nukes are the standard in ship-to-ship combat in 40k (not certain on this) and so void-shields are perfectly capable of holding off at least a few. And if nukes aren't the standard than that means there less effective, because it means the Imperium rejected them as a weapon.

So, ummm..... How exactly do intercontinental rockets work? I might not be an expert, but last time i looked, they went up into the upper atmosphere and then came back down to hit their designated targets. As far as the impeium using Atomics as a ship-to-ship weapon, they don't really seem to do that, they use regular missiles, cannons and energy weapons. Shields are great, but if they can be collapsed by regular weapons, Atomics are going to deffinately do something against them especially the Russian Tsar bomba type weapons in excess of 100megatons. If (like you said) Atomics wouldn't do anything, then why are fighters used in ship-to-ship warfare??

Again, the moment we use nuclear weapons we are fucked. We deny ourselves a massive amount of ground we can no longer fight in, but the Imperium still can. We have no idea if they will even work against void shields and the like, and they could shoot down our ICBM's

In conclusion. We'd be pooched. We wouldn't stand a chance

Not pooched, we wouldn't win but then again they wouldn't just walk over us, If it was a fight on the ground we could deffinately give them a good pounding, just not one that would ultimately win it for us.


No we would be flattened. We don't have anything to compare to their elite units and even some of their more regular units. A shit Imperial Guard force would defeat us. A good one such as Cadians, Mordians, normal guard with the Tanith etc in support would all beat us soundly and easily. And that's not even taking Astartes or Titans into account. And how do you know our counter measures or anti-target locks would even work against Imperial weapons and equipment? You can't and you don't. And a flare isn't going to stop a lascannon shooting it out they sky. Seriously are you in the military? You don't sound like you are, you sound like your getting all your info from the internet, tv and books etc. Im getting alot of mine from the same sources AND from the fact that i'm in the forces
 

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A counter argument.....Which is why I said IF, there has been numerous occasions when a planet has been taken from the ground by regular forces because a bombardment would damage something important on the planet.
Taking orbit completely out of the question is ridiculous. The Imperium has no way of fighting ANYTHING without orbital support. It's were their bulk landers come from. Just because you can't blanket fire the entire planet does not mean that you can't target strategically important locations, air bases, refueling stations, etc. and eliminate them before combat begins.

Obviously if we take orbital support completely out of the question the Imperium is in trouble. However this is because they've trained to use it. It would be like taken Americas air and naval support out of the equation when trying to determine who would win the Iraq war. It just doesn't make sense.

Imperial guard units cannot use anything like drop pods, and they use orbital landers for most of their deployments. Stand idea is that you put your forces down somewhere safe and then go fight it out. IF an orbital lander was taken down because it was in range of enemy forces how would that help anything the imperium was trying to do? Our current tanks have better anti-tank weapons, better armour, better computer systems & optics and in some cases can drive underwater
Actually they can use things that are quite similar to drop pods, especially for tanks (deep striking landraiders, anyone?). Furthermore, His Last Command (IIRC) demonstrates an orbital deployment where the guardsmen deploy right into the face of the enemy. Like literal in their face, the guardsmen are in assault like ten minutes after touchdown and that includes breaching a fortress. And again, so what if they lose a lander? So what if they lose six hundred? That just means the rest have gotten through and you can bet there will be more than six hundred.

Also we really have no way to compare modern tanks with those in 40k. We can assume through comparisons and the numbers GW gives out but that doesn't really give us anything concrete. Are tanks can drive underwater? So can chimeras. Hell, Leman Russ' can run on grass clippings. They're is no completely accurate way to say that what we have is better.

Casualty reports during a planet wide battle, not gonna happen. The imperial guard wouldn't be willing to blanket the world with their bodies to win, no commander who is running a planet wide assault would do something as stupid as that, especially against a foe who can fight properly.
During a planet wide battle casualty reports will be unnecessary, the population will be capable of finding out for itself. Does this in any way change what I said? Our world likes the will to fight through horrendous losses with no chance of victory. The Imperium does not. I must say I'm confused, you say that the Imperial Guard are willing to throw down their lives needlessly and have no tactics yet refuse to accept the logical consequences of these actions? If the only way the Imperial Guard could win here would be pay suffocating us all to death with their dead they would do it. They wouldn't even hesitate. The Guard exist to win. That is there purpose, and they will achieve it regardless of the cost.

Again, where are you getting this from? There has been numerous cases documented in the Fluff of 40k where SM power armour has been penetrated by las-fire, boltshells, autogun fire etc. I wouldnt think we would be to far off from matching that.
That statement was based of game mechanics, which I'll admit are a poor source of fluff. However, can you so we one instance where power armour was penetrated by a SINGLE lasgun shot? Having read almost the enitre Gaunt's Ghost series and several other novels I cannot think of one. Note also that I said penetrate, I do not care if the marine dies but the shot must pass completely through a solid piece of power armour (not the joints) and actually contact the marine underneath.

No offense, but most of the worlds where the population is tuaght to fight from birth is where they get through the most soldiers, Cadia being the best example, where they have to fight due to the proximity of chaos. The current special forces we have our trained well and are (in the uk) already veterans with lots of previous combat experience before they can even try and enter the special forces.
The Schola Progenium(sp?) which is responsible for the training of all Storm Troopers and Commissars raises orphans from a very young age (I believe Gaunt was 8) to fight and kill in the name of the Emperor. I am not trying to say that the Special Forces here are bad, far from it. All I am saying is the Imperium raises it's special forces on hell worlds and a diet of constant combat. The decades of training our special forces have is nothing to the lives of violence members of Guard often lead. The fact that Cadia can go through these men like tea-bags only speaks to the shear deadliness of their foes.

We arn't talking 40k, we are talking about here and now. In 40k troops get used as cannon fodder, a tactical withdrawl is often punished by death and soldiers are often blindly lead into conflicts without any real intel. Our current command and control structure is better. We have the home field advantage.
We are talking 40k. Many people have suggested that the Imperium and the Guard in particular lack any sort of modern military tactics. I was showing that this is demonstratively not the case. The Ghosts repeatedly use advanced tactics to defeat their enemies.

Secondly, sure our command and control structure is better, it's also a lot more vulnerable. How are we to protect our communications and informational satellites in space? How are we to bunker our leaders when the enemy posses the ability to bore through planets? How are we to control our armies when 1) we do not have a unified planetary leadership and 2) they can jam our communications?

So, ummm..... How exactly do intercontinental rockets work? I might not be an expert, but last time i looked, they went up into the upper atmosphere and then came back down to hit their designated targets.


So, umm... where did I talk about upper atmosphere? I said "beyond our own atmosphere" this is where space ships go. Good luck getting one low enough to shot with an intercontinental missile.
As far as the impeium using Atomics as a ship-to-ship weapon, they don't really seem to do that, they use regular missiles, cannons and energy weapons. Shields are great, but if they can be collapsed by regular weapons, Atomics are going to deffinately do something against them especially the Russian Tsar bomba type weapons in excess of 100megatons. If (like you said) Atomics wouldn't do anything, then why are fighters used in ship-to-ship warfare??
I thought there regular ordinance was nukes, but I guess I was wrong. However the Imperium is more advanced than we are, if they have chosen to use conventional missiles as opposed to nukes than their must be a reason for it. Perhaps void-shields are more effective the more powerful the blast? Perhaps the cost (and by that I mean the number of missiles) to payload ratio isn't worth it? Fighters would be used because they can get through the shields. Military technology works in cycles, better weapons, better armour, they build bigger guns so you build better shields, so they build something that gets around your shields, so you build point defense. Fighters are more effective than nukes in 40k, so that is why they are used.

At the end of the day though, that doesn't matter because like I said above, you can't hit them anyway.

Not pooched, we wouldn't win but then again they wouldn't just walk over us, If it was a fight on the ground we could deffinately give them a good pounding, just not one that would ultimately win it for us.
We would lose. This is the meaning of pooched (at least as I used it). Our defeat is inevitable and the Imperium will not notice the casualties we inflict.

EDIT: Hey Angel, I can defend myself, thank you very much. You've got rep enough as it is, let the small fries do some talking :training:. Although it is nice to see others agreeing with me :victory:.
 

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This is the issue, I've read all the gaunts ghost books (in fact i've just read "the founding" again in the last week) and when it comes down to it, everytime I look at an imperial unit then look at the Tanith I can't help but think that the Imperium is missing out. The way that they see people modifying or improving technology as heresy, the way that the imperial guard win by mostly shear numbers (with the Tanith being one of the only exceptions). I hate the majority of the imperium for the way they seem to look at technology and the way they spend lives. It's why im changing to a Tau force after I've finished my Tanith one.

My basis for the deffense of earth is that it would be against the mainstay of the Imperium, the guard, not the titan legions of the Astartes but the guard units.

Reading about them in the books, Even the Tanith, in a night fight, don't have night vision optics, they have weapons that most of the time cauterise(?) any wounds they make causing minimal bleeding. If you created a codex for the soldiers of today, and fought against the Guard, the guard would get pasted.

The elite units that the Guard have are pretty good, but so are our guys. The royal marines in the UK, or say the Rangers or Regular Marines in the USA would be at least on par with the Tanith.

I'm always gonna support the home team on this one. We know more about the Imperial forces than they would know about ours.

The big hanging point seems to be that when i'm saying how we would deffend earth, i'm using a template of the forces that Invaded Menoziod epsilon in "First and Only".
You guys seem to be using every piece of the imperium.

Also if a missile can make it to the upper atmosphere it can break orbit and go further than that.

Fighters are more effective than nukes??? You need to stop and actually think about what you are sying when you spout this kinda stuff.

the command structure of the current military is pretty solid, An emeny with no prior knowledge of our forces and organisational system, let alone where to strike wouldn't cripple us straight away.

Everyone seems to be getting too drawn into the whole "imperium wins because they are from the future" mindset.
 

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My basis for the deffense of earth is that it would be against the mainstay of the Imperium, the guard, not the titan legions of the Astartes but the guard units.
The Navy is also the mainstay force of the Imperium, at least as much as the guard. I personally haven't been including anything other than Guard and Naval support in my argument. Except the power armour thing but that was brought up by someone else.

Reading about them in the books, Even the Tanith, in a night fight, don't have night vision optics, they have weapons that most of the time cauterise(?) any wounds they make causing minimal bleeding. If you created a codex for the soldiers of today, and fought against the Guard, the guard would get pasted.
Lasguns partially cauterize wounds, which is a lot worse than not at all. You wind up with your lungs fused together, or your arm fused at the joint, it is both incredibly painful and easily disabling. I'm pretty sure the Geneva convention would outlaw them if they existed today. And I will continue to disagree that the armed forces of today could defeat the guard, certainly not on the table top. Again, this is not meant as a slight to the armies of today, or the soldiers in them, but the hell that the Guard go through is incomparable to the wars of today.

The elite units that the Guard have are pretty good, but so are our guys. The royal marines in the UK, or say the Rangers or Regular Marines in the USA would be at least on par with the Tanith.
Couple of facts here. One the Tanith aren't an elite regiment, they're good and recognized as such but they receive not additional training to most guardsmen. Two, the true elites of the Imperium, the Storm Troopers, Kasrkin, even the Cadians, Death Korps, etc. (who it should be noted are statistically identical to other guardsmen) are raised from birth in the ideals of fighting, killing and dieing for the Imperium. The level of brainwashing that goes on in these cultures is ludicrous. And the level of training is beyond anything that occurs on Earth. Three, these elites are more numerous that even the conventional armies that exist of Earth. There are more Shocktroops than there are people here. Easily.

I'm always gonna support the home team on this one. We know more about the Imperial forces than they would know about ours.
I'm not supporting the Imperium here, I'm just looking at it realistically (or at least as realistically as anything to do with 40k). The Imperium doesn't need to know anything about us. They are incredibly used to going in blind. They learn as they go or not, as necessary.

The big hanging point seems to be that when i'm saying how we would deffend earth, i'm using a template of the forces that Invaded Menoziod epsilon in "First and Only". You guys seem to be using every piece of the imperium.
I'm using the Navy and the Guard. These two were both present at Menozoid, although admittedly the Navy didn't do much. The Guard and the Navy alone would have no problems with us. None. Wham! Bam! Thank you planet Earth. That's all she wrote.

Also if a missile can make it to the upper atmosphere it can break orbit and go further than that.
That is complete and utter BS. Fuel to size and payload ratios need to change, additional atmospheric resistance needs to be taken into account, void travel needs to be accounted for. Plus there is still a very long time frame from the ship to either move or intercept the missle.

Fighters are more effective than nukes??? You need to stop and actually think about what you are sying when you spout this kinda stuff.
I did think about what I was saying. Indeed I reasoned through it in my post. Did you read it? I said "more effective" and by that I mean, most of your nukes will go off against the shields, none of the fighters will. See, thinking. There's more to war than what makes the biggest bang.

the command structure of the current military is pretty solid, An emeny with no prior knowledge of our forces and organisational system, let alone where to strike wouldn't cripple us straight away.
An enemy with a vast amount of experience dealing with a wide variety of threats and specifically in dealing with wayward human cultures would be able to cripple our communications quite quickly. A simple backtrack on signal source gives you a probably command location and you blast it apart. Simple, fast, effective, requires no previous knowledge.

Everyone seems to be getting too drawn into the whole "imperium wins because they are from the future" mindset.
The Imperium wins because they have the will and the resources. The "from the future" has nothing to do with it.
 

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Sadly, the world would be destroyed, because they would see the warring nations and different religions and declare us 'lost' even if some people wanted to embrace Imperial rule.
They wouldn't destroy the world. It's very rich in resources. They would probably bomb us back into prestone age.
 

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Grand Lord Munchkin
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We would lose, we might inflict substantially more casualties on them than they us, but that won't matter. We would put up one hell of a fight, sure, but we would be screwed from the word go.
 

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We would resist, put up a decent fight, take alot of the Imperials down with us. but we would lose, I never said we would win, just that it wouldn't be a easy victory.
 

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The Emperor Protects
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Still disagree im afraid

This is the issue, I've read all the gaunts ghost books (in fact i've just read "the founding" again in the last week) and when it comes down to it, everytime I look at an imperial unit then look at the Tanith I can't help but think that the Imperium is missing out. The way that they see people modifying or improving technology as heresy, the way that the imperial guard win by mostly shear numbers (with the Tanith being one of the only exceptions). I hate the majority of the imperium for the way they seem to look at technology and the way they spend lives. It's why im changing to a Tau force after I've finished my Tanith one.

That doesn't alter the outcome at all though. Plus there are an uncountable amount of guard Regiments, alot of which are just cannon fodder. Vitrian Dragoons aswell as many, many others would all be able to put up a fight as good as the Tanith and others

My basis for the deffense of earth is that it would be against the mainstay of the Imperium, the guard, not the titan legions of the Astartes but the guard units.

And i made all my points on that basis aswell, we are screwed before even without those added in.

Reading about them in the books, Even the Tanith, in a night fight, don't have night vision optics, they have weapons that most of the time cauterise(?) any wounds they make causing minimal bleeding. If you created a codex for the soldiers of today, and fought against the Guard, the guard would get pasted.

We don't use night sights either really in a nightfight. And i'm pretty sure even if it's not specficially mentioned that the Tanith and others do have night sights on their target and potting scopes

The elite units that the Guard have are pretty good, but so are our guys. The royal marines in the UK, or say the Rangers or Regular Marines in the USA would be at least on par with the Tanith.

Yeah the marines are excellent as are paras. My training was the second longest in the British Force behind the marines, and even then only by a few weeks. The Guard spend years and years training their elite, they are raised from birth to be fighters and do nothing else, we have nothing to compare to that. Nothing at all. There normal troops recieve training as long as our elite, if not longer. They are in now way on par with the tanith either. The Tanith scouts have absoloutely no comparison at all, and the entire regiments stealth skills put every unit earth has to shame.

I'm always gonna support the home team on this one. We know more about the Imperial forces than they would know about ours.

Shit i love Earth as much as the next person, always play a human character in games where its an option and a Terran if you can in games where its an option. But im taking a completely realistic view here, complete with my own observations from being in our military. And there is still a massive amount about the Imperial Forces we don't know.

The big hanging point seems to be that when i'm saying how we would deffend earth, i'm using a template of the forces that Invaded Menoziod epsilon in "First and Only".
You guys seem to be using every piece of the imperium.

This is the very first time you have mentioned restricting forces to such a degree, the only other restriction you placed was on orbital craft, now all of a sudden we have to use the Menazoid Epsilon template. And bear in mind we have no idea just how large the Menazoid Episilon task force was, what other objectives they had. And even with that, that force had a particular objective in mind. You've now taken a force designed for a completely different task in hand and put them in a different situation.

Also if a missile can make it to the upper atmosphere it can break orbit and go further than that.

And you know this how? Getting into the upper atmospher and actual entering space is an entirely different thing. Not that it matters as the fleets defence batteries would vaporise the missiles before they got anywhere near them

Fighters are more effective than nukes??? You need to stop and actually think about what you are sying when you spout this kinda stuff.

Well seeing as in virtually every given example in 40k fighters are used instead of nukes, youve got to wonder.

the command structure of the current military is pretty solid, An emeny with no prior knowledge of our forces and organisational system, let alone where to strike wouldn't cripple us straight away.

Well our satelites would be gone straight away, so that's alreayd crippled our communications and thus our command structure. It's not hard to indentify where our commands are based and eliminate them aswell as our airbases and other strategic points

Everyone seems to be getting too drawn into the whole "imperium wins because they are from the future" mindset.

Well for one that pretty much is the case, regardless of what Indpendence Day and other films will let you believe. But even then neither of us have been using the Imperium is from the future therefore win angle. We have been using the fact that their troops are infinitly better trained and more experienced than ours, they have an infinitly larger amount of manpower and equipment, and in general their equipment and technology is worlds apart, literally, from our own
And i dont even think we would inflict more casualties than them at all. The Imperium doesn't hesitate at the idea of eliminating huge swathes of civilians at the same time as the enemy troops. We wouldn't even put up a real good fight worthy or books and records. We would be flattened
 
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