[ThatOtherGuy]

So it is hinted in some of the codexs (or other resources) that the old ones poked a bit at our DNA structure, but never really did anything special to us in the beginning due to their time spent dueling the Necronstyr.

Now, if this is true, what do you think humanity would be like if the old ones took a little more time at our DNA structure? Any thoughts?

 

[locustgate]

I would say they would make us a psyker race like the eldar and maybe we would end up like the eldar or creating somekind of super soldiers that wipes us out.

 

[Baron Spikey]

I would say they would make us a psyker race like the eldar and maybe we would end up like the eldar or creating somekind of super soldiers that wipes us out.

Humanity did create a super soldier race that almost wiped us out- the Iron Men, thousands of years before the Imperium.

 

[gen.ahab]

It is my belief that humanity was suppose to be their trump card, their ace in the whole if you will. Unfortunatly the whole "For the dark gods" thing fucked everything sideways and now we have almost assured the end of life in the galaxy. Oh well, look good on paper.

 

[ThatOtherGuy]

It is my belief that humanity was suppose to be their trump card, their ace in the whole if you will. Unfortunatly the whole "For the dark gods" thing fucked everything sideways and now we have almost assured the end of life in the galaxy. Oh well, look good on paper.

If your going to look it like that, then a I have a perfect example: mankind is the ace of diamonds and the chaos gods are the ace of hearts. :biggrin:

 

[Cruor99]

It is my belief that humanity was suppose to be their trump card, their ace in the whole if you will. Unfortunatly the whole "For the dark gods" thing fucked everything sideways and now we have almost assured the end of life in the galaxy. Oh well, look good on paper.

Not really. With Chaos, there is life. Without life, there can not be Chaos.


And while on the tampering of human DNA, I believe the C'tan also messed with us - The Pariah gene.

 

[bobss]

So it is hinted in some of the codexs (or other resources) that the old ones poked a bit at our DNA structure, but never really did anything special to us in the beginning due to their time spent dueling the Necronstyr.

Now, if this is true, what do you think humanity would be like if the old ones took a little more time at our DNA structure? Any thoughts?

The Old One`s were fond of using the Warp, mostly spurned on by the fact that the Warp was an ethyr the C`tan feared and couldnt easily master this lethargic conglermation of emotions.

So in theory, that is why the earliest races created by the Old Ones were well adept at traversing and using the Warp; the Eldar as a common example, the race with far more understanding and spiritually atuned to the Warp (The only anomalae I can think of is that of the Emperor) Later, with the balance of the war growing in favour of the C`tan and Necrontyr and the tide began to turn against them, they resorted to less atuned races, but of much greater number and an inherent resourcefulness, love for conflict and a method of multiplying well into the millions: The Orks.

So really, if the Old Ones were to ''play about'' with our genes, we would be perhaps more atuned to the Warp, like the Eldar, though again depends upon the variable of how desperate they were during their conflict with the Necrontyr.

Dont quote me on this, or haughtilly flay it, because this is an area of the 40k fluff I am really not sure on, and draw most insight from the 40k Timeline, on another thread.:victory:

Not really. With Chaos, there is life. Without life, there can not be Chaos.


And while on the tampering of human DNA, I believe the C'tan also messed with us - The Pariah gene.

This irks me far more than absoultely anything! Chaos, definitively is but the anthithesis of any lawful concept created by any society, and true you are correct; but ''Chaos'' as in the maddened, emotion-spun turmoil that is the boon of the Chaos Gods, in turn sentient beings are not reliant upon their ''food source''. So no, the argument of ''Without life, and thus emotion, the Chaos God`s would wither and die'' is flawed. How could this theory explain the birth of Tzeentch, Khorne and Nurgle? They were born before time and life itself, perhaps only the C`tan are older, but how could you be superior in age without any concept of time at your birth?

 

[locustgate]

From what I've read the orks were created by a race created by the old ones, but then again that was a while ago.

 

[Baron Spikey]

The Old Ones created the Orks, though they were called the Krork then and it was a variation of snotlings that was in control of the race, curbing the Ork desire for combat (I know it sounds ridiculous but it's true).

 

[gothik]

well if thats the case and in WHFB the old ones are there maybe (if you wanna see it like that) they tried again but this toime puitting elves, orcs, humans, together to see how that mixed..just a thought.

 

[Cruor99]

This irks me far more than absoultely anything! Chaos, definitively is but the anthithesis of any lawful concept created by any society, and true you are correct; but ''Chaos'' as in the maddened, emotion-spun turmoil that is the boon of the Chaos Gods, in turn sentient beings are not reliant upon their ''food source''. So no, the argument of ''Without life, and thus emotion, the Chaos God`s would wither and die'' is flawed. How could this theory explain the birth of Tzeentch, Khorne and Nurgle? They were born before time and life itself, perhaps only the C`tan are older, but how could you be superior in age without any concept of time at your birth?

Chaos is many things, my child. The Gods are many things. Among those things, they are all within us - spurring us on. And you are flawed in your perception of the Gods of Chaos.

Khorne was the first of the Gods to come forth. And, he came forth around a thousand years ago from our time, some time in Terra's Middle Ages. In other words, Khorne was born from emotion. The lust for battle, the honor among warriors, and the bloodthirst of the crazed.

As such, every God is woven together of their respective areas of emotion. Without the very things that give them substance, they would cease to exist. Why else would the Eldar hope to prevent humanity to expand? Why else would the Cabal try to convince the Alpha Legion to help Horus win over the Emperor, his shame then wiping out humanity - dealing a cripling blow to the Gods of Chaos.

Take away the thing that nurtures a being, and it will summarily perish.

You understand nothing of the Gods, peasant!

 

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

Khorne was the first of the Gods to come forth. And, he came forth around a thousand years ago from our time, some time in Terra's Middle Ages.

That being entirely subjective of course, and possibly even retconned now.

 

[bobss]

Chaos is many things, my child. The Gods are many things. Among those things, they are all within us - spurring us on. And you are flawed in your perception of the Gods of Chaos.

Khorne was the first of the Gods to come forth. And, he came forth around a thousand years ago from our time, some time in Terra's Middle Ages. In other words, Khorne was born from emotion. The lust for battle, the honor among warriors, and the bloodthirst of the crazed.

As such, every God is woven together of their respective areas of emotion. Without the very things that give them substance, they would cease to exist. Why else would the Eldar hope to prevent humanity to expand? Why else would the Cabal try to convince the Alpha Legion to help Horus win over the Emperor, his shame then wiping out humanity - dealing a cripling blow to the Gods of Chaos.

Take away the thing that nurtures a being, and it will summarily perish.

You understand nothing of the Gods, peasant!

I won’t traverse the route of patronization, as amiably amusing as it may seem, because frankly the argument of the birth of the Chaos God`s during Terra`s early history is ridiculous, and there is not a single source to support such. Hypothetically, as I am sure I have spoken to Child-of-the-Emperor on such a matter before, the factors needed for the creation of Slaanesh cannot feasibly be placed upon the human race to account for the birth of the Lord of Skull`s, Decay and the Fate.

The Eldar Empire spanned the entire Galaxy, a miasma of countless worlds rivaling if not superior to that of the Imperium during the zenith of the Great Crusade; billions of these beings, highly attuned to the Warp and still it took millennia of debauchery and hedonism before they created Slaanesh, still the weakest of the Ruinous Powers.

And yet, upon this basis, I am to believe that the three most powerful Chaos Gods: Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle in descending order can be accounted for, for a sparse few centuries at best, upon Terra alone, by but a billion, short-lived and spiritually weak humans? It is absurd, and I believe holds not grasp upon current fluff


As such, the Ruinous Powers, Slaanesh exempt were born into a realm before time itself had been forged; there was no life, or anything sufficient enough of providing the essence of emotion to be reaped by the Gods.

The Chaos God`s will perish? They are the omnipotent masters of the Warp, the champions of manifested madness, the lords of that which cannot be bound by theory and reason you cannot put mortal concepts upon them, for they are not so easily labeled.

Why did the Eldar not wish for the Imperium to expand? I have not read Legion, though frankly Farseer Eldrad Ulthran of Craftworld Ulthwe attempted to save Primarch Fulgrim from the predations of Slaanesh, for it would prevent the Galaxy being induced by bloodshed spanning tens of millennia (a reference to the never-ceasing slaughter of the 41st Millennium). Why did the Eldar not want the Great Crusade to assert dominance over the Galaxy? Maybe because most of the Exodite and Maiden Worlds were yet to be conquered? Maybe they feared some form of repercussions of the Emperor`s attempt of jacking into their matrix, the Webway, do we have any solid evidence?

In all honesty, I lack the sources to give a fully-encompassing and definitive answer, with little or no flaws, but by removing the nonsense that is the birth of the Chaos Gods during the youth of Terra, helps destroy the lower echelons of your theory.

That said, its pleasant to have a complex debate

 

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

I won’t traverse the route of patronization, as amiably amusing as it may seem, because frankly the argument of the birth of the Chaos God`s during Terra`s early history is ridiculous, and there is not a single source to support such. Hypothetically, as I am sure I have spoken to Child-of-the-Emperor on such a matter before, the factors needed for the creation of Slaanesh cannot feasibly be placed upon the human race to account for the birth of the Lord of Skull`s, Decay and the Fate.

Whilst I wholeheartedly agree with you (as more modern fluff seemingly does as well - C:CD & C:CSM to name but two sources), the background regarding Nurgle, Khorne, and Tzeentch gaining consciousness in Terra's Middle Ages comes from the old sourcebook Lost and the Damned I believe.

The Eldar Empire spanned the entire Galaxy, a miasma of countless worlds rivaling if not superior to that of the Imperium during the zenith of the Great Crusade; billions of these beings, highly attuned to the Warp and still it took millennia of debauchery and hedonism before they created Slaanesh, still the weakest of the Ruinous Powers.

And yet, upon this basis, I am to believe that the three most powerful Chaos Gods: Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle in descending order can be accounted for, for a sparse few centuries at best, upon Terra alone, by but a billion, short-lived and spiritually weak humans? It is absurd, and I believe holds not grasp upon current fluff

Exactly right, although on a side note Slaanesh is not the weakest Chaos God and Khorne is not the strongest.

 

[Cruor99]

The Chaos God`s will perish? They are the omnipotent masters of the Warp, the champions of manifested madness, the lords of that which cannot be bound by theory and reason you cannot put mortal concepts upon them, for they are not so easily labeled.

Page 393 of Legion, by Dan Abnett.

As explained by Gahet of the Cabal.

+ Regard, then, the future. Horus wins, and Chaos triumphs, a terrible prospect, but likely. (...) He will immolate the human species inside two or three generations. The self-destructive, redemptive urge in Horus will drive him to exterminate mankind in shame (...) Chaos will burn brighter than ever before, and will then be extinguished. It's great victory will flare, and then gutter, as the dying imperium takes it to the grave. The races of the galaxy will be spared, through the sacrifice of the human race. +

If the Cabal is to be trusted in this, then it is quite obvious that the Gods of Chaos have invested a great deal in the human race. At least, they had during the time period of the Heresy. It is also evident that by wiping itself off the face of the galaxy, humanity will take the Gods of Chaos with them.

If another decadent race were to take on a similar approach as Humanity, who is to say the Gods of Chaos wouldn't flare out again?


I also believe there is a truth to what you say, in the fact that Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch and even Slaanesh existed before they were 'born.'

It is just the fact that they became sentient, they came to their full self-realization during certain bloody events. At times of great carnage across the galaxy, who is to say that couldn't have been during the Middle-ages of man?

Who is to say, that the Gods of Chaos, aren't simply Gods created by mankind? That could be a workable hypothesis, considering the humanoid forms of the Plaguebearers and Bloodletters. The same with Slaanesh being a figure of the eldar, his/her/it's daemons looking more eldar-ish and sleek compared to the other humanoid daemons.


And yes, I always enjoy fun debates like this

 

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

If the Cabal is to be trusted in this...

Thats one massive 'if'.

It is just the fact that they became sentient, they came to their full self-realization during certain bloody events. At times of great carnage across the galaxy, who is to say that couldn't have been during the Middle-ages of man?

The Bloodshed, Death/Disease, and Inconsistency that occured in Terra's Middle Ages was nothing compared to what was going on elsewhere in the Galaxy. I stand by bobss' point, Humanity was neither numerous enough, or psychically attuned enough to birth 3 Chaos Gods by themselves. He citied the most obvious example which refutes this theory, the Eldar creation of Slaanesh. Thousands of Trillions of Eldar spread the Galaxy and maintained an Empire which was unrivalled and massive, and even with their potent psychic nature they only birthed one Chaos God over a period of millennia, if not millions of years.

Another area which refutes the theory that the Chaos Gods were created solely by man and during Terra's Middle Ages is the fact that all (or at least the vast majority) of Xenos races feed and empower Chaos, not just humanity. Thus its logical to assume that in the current fluff (C:CSM claiming that the creation of the Chaos Gods took billions of years) the Chaos Gods gained consciousness from a material perspective in the millions/billions of years following the first species evolving in the Galaxy, and likely some point after the War in Heaven (which itself was millions of years prior to M41).

 

[bobss]

Page 393 of Legion, by Dan Abnett.

As explained by Gahet of the Cabal.

As said, I truly have not read Legion as of yet (I am still looking for a ''Silver tiered'' variant) so I couldn`t accurately gauge your answer and plot any form of reply

Who is to say, that the Gods of Chaos, aren't simply Gods created by mankind? That could be a workable hypothesis, considering the humanoid forms of the Plaguebearers and Bloodletters. The same with Slaanesh being a figure of the eldar, his/her/it's daemons looking more eldar-ish and sleek compared to the other humanoid daemons.


And yes, I always enjoy fun debates like this

Plaguebearers, Bloodletters, Daemonettes and even Horrors to a malformed extent only take humanoid, bipedal forms as a mockery of the life that exists upon the Galactic plane; Most races are bipedal to some extent: the Eldar, Orks, Necrons, Humanity, even the more obscure and exterminated Xenos. However, you must take into account how Daemonic entities are but splinters of their parent-God`s essence, and are but an amalgam of emotion-borne sentiency that lurks within the Warp. Theoretically, whenever they manifest within Real-Space they are forced to take forms that do not bend the strict laws of nature, but also their physique is suited to their specific role, function or demeanour: Seductress, lithe and agile Daemonettes; Horned, intimidating and overly muscled Bloodletters; Ever-shifting, agape, multi-limbed and faced monstrosities borne of fire: Horrors.... and so.

Such said, a vast number of Black Library novels will portray Daemons in a whole host of ways, and I, personally like to believe that the Citadel Models are but the most common incarnations of daemons. Though, really, my Chaos Daemon Codex is but a few yards away, so I should read that:laugh:

 

[GWLlosa]

I think the key is to understand the difference between Chaos == Life, and Chaos == Civilization.

Look at the 'first 3' Chaos Gods.

Tzeentch - Change.
Khorne - Conflict.
Nurgle - Decay & Death.

Its been said that the Chaos Gods 'feed' off of their concepts exercised, such that Tzeentch is strengthened by Change, Khorne by War, and Nurgle by Decay. If you suppose that feed implies nourishment and growth, then one may suppose that the Chaos Gods themselves are changed by that which nourishes them. So, as an example, if a certain kind of plague sweeps the galaxy that causes its victims to manifest pink polka dots, then that plague would feed Nurgle, and his 'aspect/portfolio' might more prominently feature pink polka dots in the future.

So what I'm getting at is this. From the dawn of Earth's history, PRE-HUMANITY, there has been change, as life evolves towards more complex entities. There has been death and decay, as lifespans end and evolutionary failures are trimmed. And there has been conflict and war, as cells eat cells and creatures eat creatures and the stronger ones triumph over the weaker ones.

My conjecture is that this may have been enough to form proto-"Chaos Gods", which have much the same goals as the goals they have today, but without conciousness, and without sentience. It was not until later, when the things dying and changing and decaying and making war were themselves sentient, that their essences being fed upon 'induced' sentience in the Chaos Gods. By such a construct, we can say that, for example, "Khorne" was born in the middle ages, because that's when the always-existing Chaos-God of War achieved sentience and took a name. That also explains how one can say that a Chaos God was born on a certain date, but has 'always existed' in the Warp. Further, that even explains why Slaanesh would be the newest Chaos God; one can argue that sensuality/depravity are products of social animals with social norms, and beyond the ability of simpler lifeforms. I.e., there is nothing a bacterium can do to another that is 'depraved'; it can merely consume or be consumed.

This is mostly speculation, but that's one way to sort of stretch definitions to fit all the fluff so far.

 

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

In regards to the Daemons:

"Daemons have no physical presence within the Warp... Instead of having a true physical shape, Daemons project a form conjured from the Warp's raw energy. The bizarre and inhuman appearances projected by Daemons indicate their presence, status and allegiance to a Chaos God. These insubstantial forms echo (or are echoed by) the shapes adopted by Daemons in real space, and the children of a Chaos Power will create and project similar forms. As with the Chaos Gods and their realms, these forms come to reflect the emotions a Daemon is based upon and have been shaped by centuries of feeding on belief." - C:CD, Page 7.

Aside from that though other sources also claim that Daemons take on the form of their opponents emotional perceptions. For example, Bloodletters appear differently in real space to Humans than to Eldar for example, based on the race's perception on anger/hate/rage.

Its been said that the Chaos Gods 'feed' off of their concepts exercised, such that Tzeentch is strengthened by Change, Khorne by War, and Nurgle by Decay. If you suppose that feed implies nourishment and growth, then one may suppose that the Chaos Gods themselves are changed by that which nourishes them. So, as an example, if a certain kind of plague sweeps the galaxy that causes its victims to manifest pink polka dots, then that plague would feed Nurgle, and his 'aspect/portfolio' might more prominently feature pink polka dots in the future.

So what I'm getting at is this. From the dawn of Earth's history, PRE-HUMANITY, there has been change, as life evolves towards more complex entities. There has been death and decay, as lifespans end and evolutionary failures are trimmed. And there has been conflict and war, as cells eat cells and creatures eat creatures and the stronger ones triumph over the weaker ones.

Indeed, but the issue we have is Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch being solely created and manifested by Humanity on Terra. What you described may be the case on how the Chaos Gods came into being, but it would have happened much earlier than when even any form of life manifested on Terra/Old Earth.

My conjecture is that this may have been enough to form proto-"Chaos Gods", which have much the same goals as the goals they have today, but without conciousness, and without sentience. It was not until later, when the things dying and changing and decaying and making war were themselves sentient, that their essences being fed upon 'induced' sentience in the Chaos Gods. By such a construct, we can say that, for example, "Khorne" was born in the middle ages, because that's when the always-existing Chaos-God of War achieved sentience and took a name. That also explains how one can say that a Chaos God was born on a certain date, but has 'always existed' in the Warp. Further, that even explains why Slaanesh would be the newest Chaos God; one can argue that sensuality/depravity are products of social animals with social norms, and beyond the ability of simpler lifeforms. I.e., there is nothing a bacterium can do to another that is 'depraved'; it can merely consume or be consumed.

This is mostly speculation, but that's one way to sort of stretch definitions to fit all the fluff so far.

While that seems like a logical theory, I still think it is majorly over-simplifying the nature of the Warp and of Chaos. C:CD claims that:

"That is how things are viewed from the chronology of the real universe; in the Warp, things are different. The Realm of Chaos has no true time, and events do not occur in a strict sequence of cause then effect. In essence, Slaanesh has always existed in the Warp, and yet has never existed." - C:CD Page 7.

The fact that 'things do not occur in a strict sequence of cause then effect' could potentially mean that Slaanesh manifested long before the Eldar were even sentient, whilst at the same time being created by the hedonistic Eldar Empire millions of years later. The whole nature of the Warp is incomprehensible to us, theres no much point in trying to understand it beyond the above quote from the codex.

 

[Cruor99]

Such said, a vast number of Black Library novels will portray Daemons in a whole host of ways, and I, personally like to believe that the Citadel Models are but the most common incarnations of daemons. Though, really, my Chaos Daemon Codex is but a few yards away, so I should read that:laugh:

That is also my understanding of the shapes and forms of Daemons.

And I apologize if it came off as I tried to tie the Chaos Gods to humanity alone. As C-o-t-e quoted, the time of massive bloodshed could have very well been during the terran middle ages, but again - not entirely refuted by C:CSM, although it is mildly implied that certain Gods came into being at an earlier point in time.

Page 8 of C:CSM also describes pretty nicely the creation of the gods:

"In the Warp, similar thoughts and emotions gather together like rivulets of water running down a cliff face. They form streams and eddies of anguish and desire, pools of hatred and torrents of pride. For billions of years these tides and waves flowed unceasingly through Warpspace, and such is their power that they formed creatures made of the stuff of Warpspace.

These instinctual, formless beings gained rudimentary consciousness and the Chaos Gods were born (...)"

As such, it still remains a possibility that Khorne (being portrayed as the Oldest) became conscious at a later point - claimed to be the middle-ages of Terra. Who can really tell if that is not the time of other great carnage across the galaxy, spurring on the hatred and bloodthirst of Lord Khorne?

Another fun fact, entirely arbituary to the discussion at hand, but I would wager that during the middle-ages most people slew in the name of 'God' or 'Allah' (looking at the crusades/inquisition.)
Blood for the Blood God anyone?