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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Ive noticed after the most recent book (heretic) that it alludes each legion/primarch, was made with a specific purpose for the Imperium.

So I started to think what each legions purpose was, I also noticed the emperor being the pragmatic individual he was, likely created a back up legion for every category, since he had doubts all the legions would stay loyal, thus his executioners.

Note: This is the purpose of each legion, not the purpose of the primarch per say.

Salamanders/Death Guard = Heavy Foot infantry

Imperial Fists/Iron Warriors = Garrisoning/fortification/Siege

Blood Angels/World Eaters = Shock Troopers

Raven Guard/Alpha Legion = Covert Ops/Intelligence Agency

Ultramarines/Word Bearers = Stand Alone Empires (its stated a legion was created with the sole purpose to watch the distant rim of the galaxy as its own stand alone entity, ala the ultramarines and the galactic east their empire. I also believe the word bearers were suppose to do similar, due to how they raised worlds, they made them extremely stable and loyal, just like the UM worlds except they went at too slow a pace).

Space Wolves/Night Lords = Executioners

White Scars/Lunar Wolves = Blitzkrieg, Spearheaded Assault

Sanctioned Legion (1 of the missing, I believe they befell a similar fate as the TT due to how the emperor likely was making two legions per purpose, and sorcery was one of the biggest fears of all the primarchs. Also how russ alludes to how he doesnt want to do Magnus what he did to the others, possibly they too were a heavy psyker legion?)/Thousand Sons = Sorcerers of the Emperor

Iron Hands/? = Technology emphasis of the Emperor, to control and or replace the Adeptus Mechanicus

Dark Angels = FBI of the imperium, created to watch and investigate internal affairs.

Emperor's Children = absolute elite troops above all other legions, but smallest in quantity. Used for most dire, risky missions where no others can complete.

So what do you all think? I'm still modifying it, but these are my current thoughts so far.
 

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The Emperor's Children were good solid troops akin to the Ultra's. Look what they did to the Laer, a race of beings that were deemed too difficult to subjugate/destroy. The Emperor's Children whipped them in a month.

The Dark Angels are good garrison troops, but could also be in the same category as the Raven Guard/ Alpha, skilled in intelligence work, hunting down the Fallen, wherever they can find them.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Hmm perhaps the dark angels purpose was to act as the FBI of the imperium, internal investigations, while the alpha/rave were the cia as the intel of external affairs.

As for the EC I perhaps they were for elite troops, small in number, but used for missions where the absolute best quality, but not neccesarily quantity was needed.

I wouldn't place EC in same category as UM and WB because the book says "and one to watch the distant rim". The EC didn't have thenumbers to set up an empire on the distant rim and manage it ever constantly. I see the UM and the WB doing this due to them being the largest legions, and they raise the most stable, loyal, post war worlds.
 

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Hmmm, never thought of it in these terms. Pretty interesting - what did you mean when you said "...since he had doubts all the legions would stay loyal, thus his executioners"? Every loyalist has been paired with a traitor - do you think he knew that one Chapter in each category would turn traitor, or do you think that the GW staff did that to even up each side - for instance, having a Chapter that is stealth like the Alpha Legion on the traitor side and the Raven Guard on the imperial side for purposes of balance.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
In the book first heretic, it is stated that the emperor created each primarch and legion for a specific purpose. It names some of them, such as
To be the heir
To watch the distant perimeter
To manager the intelligences
To safeguard the hearth
To garrison the worlds
To be his execution - confirmed as russ and the space wolves

However it also alludes to the fact that he purposely made executioner primarchs/legions, for the sole purpose of taking down other primarchs/legions...which makes one wonder if he knew or suspected not all would stay loyal
 

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Oh gotcha, must have skimmed over some of that part lol, I read the first 3 descriptions of the Primarchs dropping in their pods, then skipped to the action haha.

Of topic, but the Iron Hands are in need of some serious love when it comes to fluff - they seem pretty damn cool, but haven't been shown much attention.
 

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Deathwing Commissar
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Given the list you mentioned, I don't know that intelligence gathering suits the Dark Angels. From what we've seen of their campaigns ("Call of the Lion", "Descent of Angels", "Fallen Angels") they seem to be in the frontier/outward reaches of the Imperium. They are almost always described bringing worlds to compliance (DoA), seeking out new outposts of Humanity (CotL), etc.

It's not until "Fallen Angels" that we see the Legio I turning back toward the established Imperium, and even then this is after the Heresy has already erupted and the Lion is simply acting on his own natural genius. The information he acted on was available to every other Primarch--he was simply the one bright enough to apply it properly to the conflict at hand. :)
 

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Given the list you mentioned, I don't know that intelligence gathering suits the Dark Angels. From what we've seen of their campaigns ("Call of the Lion", "Descent of Angels", "Fallen Angels") they seem to be in the frontier/outward reaches of the Imperium. They are almost always described bringing worlds to compliance (DoA), seeking out new outposts of Humanity (CotL), etc.

It's not until "Fallen Angels" that we see the Legio I turning back toward the established Imperium, and even then this is after the Heresy has already erupted and the Lion is simply acting on his own natural genius. The information he acted on was available to every other Primarch--he was simply the one bright enough to apply it properly to the conflict at hand. :)
True, also the Lion on an individual level wasn't perceptive enough to be head of an intelligience network. He doesn't get people.

The DA have evolved into a mixed bunch they have specialist heavy infantry in the Deathwing aswell as a dedicated fast attack cadre the Ravenwing. So to be honest I have no idea what their intended purpose might have been at the founding. Perhaps just a general, flexible fighting force. A jack of all trades if you like.
 

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I disagree with that first line on principle. What's more likely? That the Lion doesn't get people? Or that Nemiel just doesn't get a Primarch? That Lion El'Jonson somehow managed to get through five decades of Great Crusade on sheer luck overcoming a massive social handicap, or that Nemiel just follows the already shown trend of consciously and/or subconsciously propping his master on such a pedestal that he is shocked to discover he isn't perfect?

That entire exchange--the Primarch, the Governor, Archoi, Nemiel--was prefaced by the Lion spelling out for Nemiel that Horus could conceivably have agents anywhere. So it's not as if his quandary was so cosmic. Furthermore, the Lion asked for Nemiel's opinion after he had already made his decision. It's not as if he was looking to Nemiel to help him make up his mind.

If we're going to use this as an example for the Lion being socially handicapped, then Rogal Dorn must be a colossal moron and/or an uncontrollably violent individual following his encounter with Nathaniel Garro. Like two renegade Astartes would really cook up a story about Horus rebelling and then try to sell it to another Primarch. What exactly did Rogal Dorn think their grand plot entailed? That he simply WASN'T going to check the facts and would instead be forced to attack Horus w/out provocation? :wink:

Ultimately, the Dark Angels seem to have been a shock invasion force. Their demonstrated tactics place emphasis on precise strikes at key locations--whether during fleet actions or planetary landings.

For myself, I also don't like terms like "Jack of All Trades". If you look at an infantry battalion, they're not "well versed in a number of vocations". They can't, for instance, jump into a helicopter or a tank as needed, and fly/drive to their objective. They can't run up to a howitzer and start laying down artillery barrages kilometers away. Their infantrymen are just that: infantrymen.

A unit is defined by its mission statement, as determined by the sum of its equipment. With that sum of equipment might come limitations. The US 82nd Airborne Division or the British Paras, for example, who simply CAN'T wage armored warfare like a US Infantry Division--which also includes armored units. On the other hand, a US Infantry Division isn't capable of parachuting in any part of the world in less than (theoretically) 24 hours.

With that in mind, no Legion* shown thus far lacks armor, gunships, artillery, spaceships, etc. Certain Legions might favor certain tactics or modes of engagement, but none of them are limited to certain sectors of war on account of differing equipment. Thus, there is no "Jack of All Trades" Legion. The Alpha Legion are great covert operatives because that's Alpharius' philosophical bent. But unless Alpharius just scrapped all his armour, he can still wage armored warfare. Mind you, he might lean more toward Rommel's playbook than Monty's (the Desert Fox famously used feints, misdirection, and allied units as bait to distract from his true master-stroke attack), but that's another matter altogether.

In conclusion, so as not to sound like a complete prick... cheers, good words, and don't take anything I said above too seriously. :D

P.

* Though in Legion the Legio XX keeps pretty much all its assets in reserve while the Imperial Army does most of the conventional fighting.
 

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I disagree with that first line on principle. What's more likely? That the Lion doesn't get people? Or that Nemiel just doesn't get a Primarch? That Lion El'Jonson somehow managed to get through five decades of Great Crusade on sheer luck overcoming a massive social handicap, or that Nemiel just follows the already shown trend of consciously and/or subconsciously propping his master on such a pedestal that he is shocked to discover he isn't perfect?

That entire exchange--the Primarch, the Governor, Archoi, Nemiel--was prefaced by the Lion spelling out for Nemiel that Horus could conceivably have agents anywhere. So it's not as if his quandary was so cosmic. Furthermore, the Lion asked for Nemiel's opinion after he had already made his decision. It's not as if he was looking to Nemiel to help him make up his mind.

If we're going to use this as an example for the Lion being socially handicapped, then Rogal Dorn must be a colossal moron and/or an uncontrollably violent individual following his encounter with Nathaniel Garro. Like two renegade Astartes would really cook up a story about Horus rebelling and then try to sell it to another Primarch. What exactly did Rogal Dorn think their grand plot entailed? That he simply WASN'T going to check the facts and would instead be forced to attack Horus w/out provocation? :wink:
That wasn't my sole basis for him being "socially handicapped" (your words by the way not mine :wink:). There's also his questionable appoingtment of Cypher, his handling of Luther, and pretty much all the criticisms that were laid at his feet by Astelan in Angels of Darkness. If you take all of these at face value As it Stands I think he's not too good a judge of charachter. Admittedly you may be correct about the conversation with Nemiel but we can agree to disagree there, again I choose to go with my first impression here with the other supporting evidence taken into account.

Never thought I'd find myself defending Dorn but in that instance he had been greeted by two Astartes claiming that his brother had done the inconceivable, personally I think the idea of Horus and a few legions turning traitor is alot less likely than two Astartes. Dorn acted correctly in this instance, he pulled his blow and may or may not have actually decapitated Garro, we'll never know.

Ultimately, the Dark Angels seem to have been a shock invasion force. Their demonstrated tactics place emphasis on precise strikes at key locations--whether during fleet actions or planetary landings.

For myself, I also don't like terms like "Jack of All Trades". If you look at an infantry battalion, they're not "well versed in a number of vocations". They can't, for instance, jump into a helicopter or a tank as needed, and fly/drive to their objective. They can't run up to a howitzer and start laying down artillery barrages kilometers away. Their infantrymen are just that: infantrymen.

A unit is defined by its mission statement, as determined by the sum of its equipment. With that sum of equipment might come limitations. The US 82nd Airborne Division or the British Paras, for example, who simply CAN'T wage armored warfare like a US Infantry Division--which also includes armored units. On the other hand, a US Infantry Division isn't capable of parachuting in any part of the world in less than (theoretically) 24 hours.

With that in mind, no Legion* shown thus far lacks armor, gunships, artillery, spaceships, etc. Certain Legions might favor certain tactics or modes of engagement, but none of them are limited to certain sectors of war on account of differing equipment. Thus, there is no "Jack of All Trades" Legion. The Alpha Legion are great covert operatives because that's Alpharius' philosophical bent. But unless Alpharius just scrapped all his armour, he can still wage armored warfare. Mind you, he might lean more toward Rommel's playbook than Monty's (the Desert Fox famously used feints, misdirection, and allied units as bait to distract from his true master-stroke attack), but that's another matter altogether.
Somewhere in there you may have contradicted yourself....

My take on Jack of all trades, which admittedly may have been an over simplification in my initial post, is a unit that can probably do everything fairly well. Astartes in General conform here, you want artillery? They have whirlwinds. You want fast attack? They have bikes and landspeeders. You want paratroopers? They have Jump packs. You want a navy? They have strike cruisers. You want an engineer corp? They have tech marines. You want a medical corp? They have apothacaries.

So what I was getting at is that the DA, by not openly advancing down the garrisoning/siege path or specialising in covert ops etc. It leaves them as simply Astartes which as I've pointed out are great at everything.

Incidently I mean no disrespect to the DA here.

In conclusion, so as not to sound like a complete prick... cheers, good words, and don't take anything I said above too seriously. :D

P.
No worries man, it's christmas. :)
 

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Ill throw in my two cents here.

Bearing in mind that I have yet to read any of the K books (aside form codecii and rulebook) when looking at the Deathwing and the Ravenwing, I see specialized troops. I would dare say to lump the Dark Angels with the Emperor's children, with the Emperors Children being the preferred.

In the OPers lists, the Loyalist Chapter usually comes first. In this assumption that I have made, the Emperor's children come first. Why? Because maybe the Emperor through that the Dark Angels, not the Emperor's children would turn Traitor.



But that is just my two cents, take it what you will.
 

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Ill throw in my two cents here.

Bearing in mind that I have yet to read any of the K books (aside form codecii and rulebook) when looking at the Deathwing and the Ravenwing, I see specialized troops. I would dare say to lump the Dark Angels with the Emperor's children, with the Emperors Children being the preferred.
I know I already mentioned the Deathwing and Ravenwing which was not really intended to imply too much other than the DA's slight advantage in the area of heavy troops and fast attack in the 41'st millenium. I didn't wnat to imply that this would put them in the league of the Blood Angels, World Eaters or Space Wolves as shock troops. But yes I see what you mean by specialised troops.

In any case going back to the OP I don't believe the Lion was created with this in mind as it was only after the Lion's defeat that the Ravenwing and Deathwing were founded so there's no evidence of specialisation during the HH.
 

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The Emperor Protects
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Worth bearing in mind that the Lion managed to rack up one of the highest number of victories of the primarchs despite entering the Crusade in only the last 50 years or so of it. In fact in the original fluff i'm pretty sure The Lion was second only to Horus in his number of victories, but now Dorn appears to hold that honor. Either way, definetly point to the Dark Angels being a very capable assault legion, able to take worlds and defeat foes quite rapidly, much like the Emperors Children only with greater numbers.
 

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Worth bearing in mind that the Lion managed to rack up one of the highest number of victories of the primarchs despite entering the Crusade in only the last 50 years or so of it. In fact in the original fluff i'm pretty sure The Lion was second only to Horus in his number of victories, but now Dorn appears to hold that honor. Either way, definetly point to the Dark Angels being a very capable assault legion, able to take worlds and defeat foes quite rapidly, much like the Emperors Children only with greater numbers.
True but it's not explicitly stated they were rapid assaults, they may have been decisive naval victories, pinpoint artillery strikes, diplomatic annexations, sieges etc. There are more than one ways to skin a cat. Some of these can be done quite quickly too. In any case I'm not questioning the Lions record, simply saying that with the fluff that is out there it would be wrong to compare them to the Alpha legion as infiltrators, the World Eaters etc as shock troops or the Emperor's children as being "specialists" simply that they probably achieved all that they did by being astartes and thus being a well disciplined, versatile fighting force which is more than enough.
 

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There's also his questionable appoingtment of Cypher, his handling of Luther, and pretty much all the criticisms that were laid at his feet by Astelan in Angels of Darkness. If you take all of these at face value As it Stands I think he's not too good a judge of charachter. Admittedly you may be correct about the conversation with Nemiel but we can agree to disagree there, again I choose to go with my first impression here with the other supporting evidence taken into account.
Consider the following, though...

Luther was the second greatest hero Caliban had ever seen. Had the Lion been forced to overtly take action against him, morale in the Legion--much of which hailed from Caliban--would have been devastated. Furthermore, the Lion's course of action indicates understanding that Luther DIDN'T follow through with his actions. Posting him to Caliban was an unadvertised punishment for the sake of discretion. Even Luther realized this, and the fact that he didn't complain about it speaks volumes. He knew what he did.

Similarly, Cypher's appointment was not in error. As a former Knight of Lupus, Cypher was uniquely qualified to handle the material retrieved from his former order's headquarters. Before we assume that he was just accepted/appointed, we need to remember that a significant time period was simply summarized in a few lines. The Lion is so thorough with his campaigns and intelligence that there's no way he wouldn't have vetted Cypher first. Cypher's role--both in terms of his rapport with recruits and his research into Caliban's nature--would of course have necessitated him staying back on the Legion homeworld. Was this a mistake? I don't think so; we have to remember that, following the Crusade to destroy the Beasts, Caliban was enjoying a time of unparalleled peace. The conspirators blame the Lion for "betraying" them on account of the monsters returning, but that's a wild leap of assumption.

Finally, where Astellan is concerned, we all need to remember that he never offers any proof of his positions whatsoever in his account. His gimmick, throughout "Angels of Darkness" is to accuse El'Jonson of something; and when called on for proof, to simply level ANOTHER accusation, again without proof.

Never thought I'd find myself defending Dorn but in that instance he had been greeted by two Astartes claiming that his brother had done the inconceivable, personally I think the idea of Horus and a few legions turning traitor is alot less likely than two Astartes. Dorn acted correctly in this instance, he pulled his blow and may or may not have actually decapitated Garro, we'll never know.
Again, had Garro and Qruze really been lying, how on earth could they have expected to get away with it? :wink:

My take on Jack of all trades, which admittedly may have been an over simplification in my initial post, is a unit that can probably do everything fairly well. Astartes in General conform here, you want artillery? They have whirlwinds. You want fast attack? They have bikes and landspeeders. You want paratroopers? They have Jump packs. You want a navy? They have strike cruisers. You want an engineer corp? They have tech marines. You want a medical corp? They have apothacaries.
That is an incorrect simplification, though. It presumes that each Astartes is able to get in a Whirlwind, or that they can all serve as Techmarines or Apothecaries. They can't.

But EVERY Legion has individuals who can do the above. EVERY Legion has those capabilities thanks to specialists and such. There are no "Jacks of All Trades" within said Legion. There are Astartes with the infantry mission skill set, Astartes with specialized vehicle training, Astartes with highly specialized vocations (Apothecaries, etc.), and so on.

I'd say the World Eaters are about the only Legion that departed from the model. But that doesn't make the rest of the Legions "Jacks of All Trades"... the World Eaters simply became increasingly more deviant as they succumbed to their Primarch's madness and the influence of Khorne.

Incidently I mean no disrespect to the DA here.
No worries! :)
 

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Grand Lord Munchkin
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Back to the OP's list.

I don't believe the NL were meant to put legions to the torch, it seems more likely that they were meant to pacify unruly human populations. Their methods could have been used to scare a population into compliance with relatively little civilian casualties.
 

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I don't think they were meant to do even that. Their tactics seem to have been wholly the product of the Night Haunter's ideology.

Or, perhaps, they were... and all those roles were assigned AFTER the Primarchs were discovered? In the sense of them getting roles that suited their personalities?
 

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Well our basic personality traits would have been in place since our creation; much of who we are is determined by genetic structure, but I believe the emperor would have deployed them based on the skills that they had acquired on their respective "home worlds". The traits that Night Haunter developed, and later used to guide his legion, would have made them an ideal choice for pacification of uprisings without too much blood being spilled. Based on what little I know about their deployments during the crusade, I would have to say that that was the role they took.

They, unlike many other legions, could also have been used in situations where the warmaster, or emperor, might have wanted to keep structural damage to a minimum; the NL could have simply scared the living fuck out of the population until they gave up.
 

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Consider the following, though...

Luther was the second greatest hero Caliban had ever seen. Had the Lion been forced to overtly take action against him, morale in the Legion--much of which hailed from Caliban--would have been devastated. Furthermore, the Lion's course of action indicates understanding that Luther DIDN'T follow through with his actions. Posting him to Caliban was an unadvertised punishment for the sake of discretion. Even Luther realized this, and the fact that he didn't complain about it speaks volumes. He knew what he did.

Similarly, Cypher's appointment was not in error. As a former Knight of Lupus, Cypher was uniquely qualified to handle the material retrieved from his former order's headquarters. Before we assume that he was just accepted/appointed, we need to remember that a significant time period was simply summarized in a few lines. The Lion is so thorough with his campaigns and intelligence that there's no way he wouldn't have vetted Cypher first.

Finally, where Astellan is concerned, we all need to remember that he never offers any proof of his positions whatsoever in his account. His gimmick, throughout "Angels of Darkness" is to accuse El'Jonson of something; and when called on for proof, to simply level ANOTHER accusation, again without proof.
Sigh. Again I don't think you're gonna sway me. The Lion allowed malcotents to exist in his legion and rather then sway them to his cause with charm, passion, splendour and all those other traits that the other primarchs used to win over their marines, he maroons them with only a former enemy to be his eyes and ears. What other primarch managed this? Tbh it's a debate for another thread but to be difinitive; I don't think the Lion had the perceptiveness to run an intelligience network. His strengths were analytical and tactical. You can read into it all you want but ultimately until GW decides to clean this up I'm going to say that he has shortcomings in the people department.

Again, had Garro and Qruze really been lying, how
on earth could they have expected to get away with it? :wink:
That's not really what I'm getting at. Put it this way, the whole HH series has gone to great lengths to establish the "family" aspect of the primarchs and the Emperor so say two complete strangers are found by you and accuse your brother who you love of trying to kill your father whom you also, presumably, love. Whose side are you more likely to take? In the first few minutes you're more than likely to get a bit upset with the two strangers. I don't blame Dorn for acting the way he did and overreacting for a few moments under such intense pressure with family involved. That is all.

That is an incorrect simplification, though. It presumes that each Astartes is able to get in a Whirlwind, or that they can all serve as Techmarines or Apothecaries. They can't.

But EVERY Legion has individuals who can do the above. EVERY Legion has those capabilities thanks to specialists and such. There are no "Jacks of All Trades" within said Legion. There are Astartes with the infantry mission skill set, Astartes with specialized vehicle training, Astartes with highly specialized vocations (Apothecaries, etc.), and so on.

I see the problem here. I said "Astartes in general conform here". Let me re-phrase "Astartes legios in general" :biggrin:

My points, as mentioned a few times now, are that in the role of infiltrators for example I wouldnt pick the DA before the Alpha Legion, in the role of siege works I wouldn't pick the DA over the Iron Warriors and so on. Basically I'm saying the DA don't fit any category mentioned in this thread thus far. If you remember that's how I opened up here when I agreed with you that the DA wouldnt be suited as an intelligience corp. Therefore I would count the DA (again as an astartes legion not an individual astartes) as jacks of all trades (sorry to use that phrase again but I'm trying to explain why it has some use here). Co-incidently I'm not singling out the DA as the only legion of this type (that is the non specialising type), the Ultramarines, possibly the luna wolves may be similar. Also I'm not trying to say that other legions don't have the DA's flexibility (or jackness:grin:) just that, returning to the OP, they're primarch (the other legions' that is) and in turn their modus operandii might include a back up or purpose such as fast attack (White Scars).

I'd say the World Eaters are about the only Legion that departed from the model. But that doesn't make the rest of the Legions "Jacks of All Trades"... the World Eaters simply became increasingly more deviant as they succumbed to their Primarch's madness and the influence of Khorne.
Again I'm talking about the purpose (if there is any) for the legions founding. In which case the similarities to assault troops, infiltrators etc. has been well documented to this point.

Not sure if we're on the same wave-length here so apologies if some fundamental part of this discussion is making me seem completely irrational. :laugh:

Btw I hate writing long messages so this may seem completely irrellavant/out of date, but what the hell.
 

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The Emperor Protects
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True but it's not explicitly stated they were rapid assaults, they may have been decisive naval victories, pinpoint artillery strikes, diplomatic annexations, sieges etc. There are more than one ways to skin a cat. Some of these can be done quite quickly too. In any case I'm not questioning the Lions record, simply saying that with the fluff that is out there it would be wrong to compare them to the Alpha legion as infiltrators, the World Eaters etc as shock troops or the Emperor's children as being "specialists" simply that they probably achieved all that they did by being astartes and thus being a well disciplined, versatile fighting force which is more than enough.

I'm not saying assaults as in melee. Just assaulting a world in general, and beating them very quickly, much like the Emperors Children, who weren't specialists in any one field, they strived for perfection in all forms of warfare and as a result were seemingly sent to worlds and systems that needed to be defeated fast. The Lions incredible tactical and strategic mind obviously played a part, being able to look ahead, but you don't rake up more victories than almost every other legion despite only being in the crusade for a considerably short amount of time in comparison by just being good at their drills. They would have to be pretty damn excellent in various aspects of warfare, much like the EC to be able to keep ploughing on through as many worlds as they did.
 
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